Private Boarding vs. Day School vs. Grammar

[Breeze67]

As a parent of a Year 5 DD, I’m struggling to justify the premium of a private day school. My primary concern is the disruption and mixed academic abilities in comprehensive state schools, which is why a selective school—be it a grammar or an independent one—seems like a solid solution. There is so much praise for independent schools, but when you look at the time factor, it gets complicated: When you look at how little time kids are actually at school—only covering half the year (private schools have much longer holidays) and only 8 out of 24 hours in a school day—it is clear that the heavy lifting, the real character building, and extra learning still happen at home. If we parents are doing the bulk of the work, what are we actually paying the big fees for?
Despite the fancy surface, much of the day-to-day experience between a grammar and an indie is not significantly different. Whether it’s museum trips, sports days, or classroom activities, the core experience cannot be vastly different. Is a class of 20-plus kids in a private day school really that much better than 30 in a top grammar? Of course, a difference exists, but likely impacts less than 1/3 of the school time. So, if we look at the maths, it’s 1/3 (the advantage) of 1/3 (the school day duration) of 1/2 (the school year), which is only about 1/18 of the year's time! Are we paying a figure roughly equivalent to the UK average salary for what essentially amounts to a 1/18 difference in yearly education? I am shocked by the number.
This leads me to wonder: is boarding the only true exception? Personally, I will not do it because I just enjoy my kid's company every day. But logically, only full boarding offers a genuine holistic education. It is a 24/7 immersion into an academic and social community that a day school, by design, simply cannot touch.
So, if day schools aren't significantly better than grammars, and I’m unwilling to consider boarding, am I left with a compromise? Are we paying for a superior education, or just a different peer group?

The fact that it is even possible to do a term long assignment in a single week tells you everything you need to know about how much work is actually required. DD did hers over a longish period and really enjoyed it.

There are no issues here 😁🤦‍♀️ We were just discussing HW, not fighting.

Neither there were any attack until your rude opening sentence.

I repeat: If you don't believe me, you're welcome to check my statements. With whomever you like.

It is a very interesting and stimulating HW for sure.
Parents did it in a couple of weeks 😁 (not the reading of course as it's a passive skill and enjoyable activity).

Just out of interest, eg in Jane Eyre, how do you think 11yo could understand the themes of sex and passion, restrictive marriage, race (especially in a highly controversial context of a Creol being mentally unstable and violent), faith (especially different denominations when the modern society is almost 100% atheist and children haven't got a clue) etc? I'm not saying it's not age appropriate, my DC reads Homer which is basically horror stories with constant wars, murders, monsters etc and I'm not fazed. I'm saying it's too deep for an independent analysis at this age. It's very good they're being stretched, but the stretch wouldn't happen without parents' direct involvement.

It's no secret that at all top schools - Kings, SP, SPGS, even City parents sometimes do part of the projects for DC. The workload is unmanageable otherwise as many DC also do sport and music at very high levels. I know of DC (not at SPGS) that regularly do HW till 11pm. There are not enough hours in the day.

Not all do that of course and I'm not saying SPGS is the most pressurised environment either, but it's like with tutoring - people do not advertise what they're doing.

🤦‍♀️🙄

It's no secret that at all top schools - Kings, SP, SPGS, even City parents sometimes do part of the projects for DC. The workload is unmanageable otherwise as many DC also do sport and music at very high levels. I know of DC (not at SPGS) that regularly do HW till 11pm. There are not enough hours in the day.

That is exactly what I am saying. I don't believe in the top performing schools without a lot of hard work and "parental support"

I don't know about anyone else but DD did the vast majority of it herself. I helped her by showing her some craft and sewing techniques at one point (one of the tasks is to do a visual representation related to the books). It is a competition with prizes for the best projects and she did very well.

All her analysis and creative writing was carried out entirely independently. As well as analysis and creative writing, the other task is to write an overview of what the experience of completing the project taught them. It is mainly IMO about them teaching themselves to learn independently rather than exactly what they learn about the books involved, though that is a nice side benefit. Any child whose parents did it for them or had heavy involvement won't have learnt those lessons which seems like a bit of a missed opportunity to me. Not everyone is lucky enough to get such engaging things to do at school. Even choosing the books is an interesting exercise in academic research. DD thought long and hard about it and chose books that all had something in common so she could compare and contrast them.

Just out of interest, eg in Jane Eyre, how do you think 11yo could understand the themes of sex and passion, restrictive marriage, race (especially in a highly controversial context of a Creol being mentally unstable and violent), faith (especially different denominations when the modern society is almost 100% atheist and children haven't got a clue) etc?

In fact, Jane Eyre was one of DD's chosen books and she opted to also read Wide Sargasso Sea as an extra book and background which I think gave her some interesting perspectives. But she has read all the books she included again since then and freely admits that she did not fully grasp them at the time and got a lot more out of her rereading. There were certain parts of it that she understood more than others because of her own personal life experiences. But the school is looking at the work produced in the context of 11 and 12 year olds and what it is possible for them to achieve so I am sure they are well aware that none of them will fully grasp all the nuances.

@WhatWouldGinDo Yes, money does follow talent and they do adjust income levels - not all schools are the same.

@Ubertomusic I think you are talking about day schools. Boarding schools don’t have parents around and dc might have parents overseas too. These dc are very self reliant.

As I said, you're probably not the most representative SPGS parent @BonjourCrisette 😁

Any child whose parents did it for them or had heavy involvement won't have learnt those lessons which seems like a bit of a missed opportunity to me.

Not sure about that. DD's recent HW was to write a short science fiction story with a particular focus (cyborgs). They read a sci fi short novel in lessons but there was no cyborg in it. The school didn't give any recommended reading list nor any guidance on themes around cyborgs. DD wrote a reasonably developed plot as she reads a lot and it's no problem for her. However, she could not develop neither human nor cyborg characters as for her the story is about action. I had to make her read Asimov to think more about robots. We had to discuss cyborg's nature (part human, part robotic) which is actually a complex topic not easily accessible for a 12yo (do they have any feelings left etc). She had to be prompted to polish some parts (what were the events before the story begins? why did a hero reacted in this way? etc)

It was supposed to be a week or two weeks project with no extra reading. It took a lot of time in those two weeks and a lot of input from me, even though I didn't write a single sentence for her. She could've done her own research on cyborg sci fi but it would've taken ages as she's not interested in robots and would've been sifting through some random pulp. I had to show her a shortcut to Asimov not to get stuck at this HW forever. She could've left characters development out as she's not interested, but I made her do it, not for the grade but precisely for learning how to do it. I think parental involvement is inevitable and it doesn't necessarily mean a missed opportunity.

My DC is a day pupil at a boarding school.

As I said, you're probably not the most representative SPGS parent

I thought it was someone else who said that. But also, I think you'd be surprised.

No, I know there are lots of lovely parents at SPGS though my sample is not representative. 😁

@BonjourCrisette

But the school is looking at the work produced in the context of 11 and 12 year olds and what it is possible for them to achieve so I am sure they are well aware that none of them will fully grasp all the nuances.

11 years old? We are talking about secondary school.

There is no point in tagging me. I won't be responding further to you since you are pretty rude, lacking in logic and thinking skills and deliberately goady.

It's a shame that instead of sticking to the facts, you've resorted to personal attacks. It's a pretty immature way to exit a conversation just because your argument didn't hold up

It's a shame that you won't believe anything from anyone else's personal experience that doesn't exactly chime with your own world view and instead resort to rudeness and deliberate attempts to provoke. A very immature way to behave. Unlike you, I am not having an argument. I'm telling people some facts that I happen to know. And that's my last word to you. You're very recognisable despite the name changes so shouldn't be too hard to avoid!

One of my DC's first experiences at a private school was when the head stuck out their hand to shake my 7 year old's hand.

My DD experienced this throughout her time in private primary school; in fact, she had her hand shaken by the head of the school every day from the age of two at an expensive nursery. But now, as she approaches her teenage years, I think that a slightly tougher environment might be beneficial and better reflect real-life experiences.

I notice it in music - at one top ranking state school where i have experience, the (amazing) music department is rightly praised but the music they do is absolutely not in the same league as at the top ranking private school that I know.

If you compare the absolute top-tier schools, I agree that the best private school offer superior extracurriculars such as music. However, when comparing a top-performing state school that we visited to two good (not elite) private day schools, we found that the state school’s music department is surprisingly superior.

By the way, if a child is exceptionally talented, professional training outside of school might be an excellent option. Take Emma Raducanu as an example: she attended a grammar school while pursuing her high-level tennis training independently. Similarly, for a musician at Grade 8 level or above, joining an elite youth orchestra or a specialized music academy outside of school would compensate for the lack of a top-tier orchestra within a state school.

Only in the UK grade 8 in secondary can be referred to as exceptional talent and "elite" 😂🤦‍♀️

Not everyone wants to sacrifice Saturdays for JD.

If a child has achieved Grade 8 but is not yet at an "elite" or "exceptionally talented" level, joining a school orchestra that requires Grade 5 or above in the state school might not be a significant loss.

Grade 8 in popular instruments such as violin or cello in Year 7 at SPGS is not exceptional. Grade 8 in less popular instruments can be, not as a statement of talent, but merely in rarity.

At SPGS's spring concert, they printed bios of the 4 soloists. I believe that they all were attending JDs. Even SPGS doesn't meet the needs of really dedicated musicians.

Grade 8 is not "exceptional talent" by default. It's an intermediate level exam in the worldwide context and it's not an indication of any "talent" either. Thousands of Asian children routinely achieve g8 distinction by 8-9, usually on most difficult instruments.

I always thought the nice thing about SPGS's musical offering was that there were a whole range of ensembles of all levels and loads of different genres. So my child who was at grade 5 in Y7 was able to join something at her level and have the fun of participating. And yes, playing at concerts too. Or other children did jazz or whatever and didn't necessarily care about grades.

It's also true that in a different type of school a grade 5 before Y7 would have been considered exceptional. It doesn't mean it is, but these things are all a bit context-specific.

While grade 8 at Y7 isn't necessarily an indicator of potential to actually become a professional musician or join the elite musical world, I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that it is significantly better than average. It is a genuine achievement and should be celebrated. You don't have to be the absolute best at something to take pride in your achievements and enjoy doing something well.

The thing about a child at grade 8 joining an orchestra where grade 5 is the minimum requirement is that there might not be much challenge. But that might not matter too much if music isn't their main love or if they are doing other musical stuff outside school. They might just enjoy being part of the ensemble and participating and that is really enriching, too.

I thought you sounded like a professor of English, and now you sound like a professor of music. Thank you for the lectures, but I know what I was talking about. Since Grade 8 is the well-known highest level (few people know about the diploma and above and JD) and was specifically mentioned by the previous poster, I simply used it as an indication of potential talent when communicating with them. And yes, I do think that skimming literature for presentation CAN be useful occasionally. I would be an idiot to advocate skimming literature as a main way of approaching it.