Private Boarding vs. Day School vs. Grammar

[Breeze67]

As a parent of a Year 5 DD, I’m struggling to justify the premium of a private day school. My primary concern is the disruption and mixed academic abilities in comprehensive state schools, which is why a selective school—be it a grammar or an independent one—seems like a solid solution. There is so much praise for independent schools, but when you look at the time factor, it gets complicated: When you look at how little time kids are actually at school—only covering half the year (private schools have much longer holidays) and only 8 out of 24 hours in a school day—it is clear that the heavy lifting, the real character building, and extra learning still happen at home. If we parents are doing the bulk of the work, what are we actually paying the big fees for?
Despite the fancy surface, much of the day-to-day experience between a grammar and an indie is not significantly different. Whether it’s museum trips, sports days, or classroom activities, the core experience cannot be vastly different. Is a class of 20-plus kids in a private day school really that much better than 30 in a top grammar? Of course, a difference exists, but likely impacts less than 1/3 of the school time. So, if we look at the maths, it’s 1/3 (the advantage) of 1/3 (the school day duration) of 1/2 (the school year), which is only about 1/18 of the year's time! Are we paying a figure roughly equivalent to the UK average salary for what essentially amounts to a 1/18 difference in yearly education? I am shocked by the number.
This leads me to wonder: is boarding the only true exception? Personally, I will not do it because I just enjoy my kid's company every day. But logically, only full boarding offers a genuine holistic education. It is a 24/7 immersion into an academic and social community that a day school, by design, simply cannot touch.
So, if day schools aren't significantly better than grammars, and I’m unwilling to consider boarding, am I left with a compromise? Are we paying for a superior education, or just a different peer group?

I feel like it’s too general an answer without looking at specific schools.

I’m in Herts- we have grammars/academically selective schools, some very competitive private schools, boarding schools, some private schools where the main criteria is being able to afford it and of course state schools that are not selective in any way.

It entirely depends on the child and what suits them best. I only have one DC who is very academic, likes learning and hates a disruptive environment so we are looking at grammars or academic private schools. None of these schools would suit DNephew at all because he’s a very different person with his own talents.

I don’t have a need for my DC to board and they haven’t expressed an interest in doing so, so it’s not something we are considering. Cost is also a factor here. My Dad boarded from age 13 and loved it so I’m in no way against it. Family friends have gone to Millfield to support their sporting endeavours and again have been very happy.

@Breeze67

My primary concern is the disruption and mixed academic abilities in comprehensive state schools,

As I mentioned in the other thread, you don't seem to realize that schools use ability setting (streaming) - sets at Maths English Science and later other subjects.

Also, regarding student disruption: I was actually a disruptive kid myself at a top school, yet I managed to graduate with two master's degrees, including an MBA from a famous university in California. My "disruption" at scho consisted of talking too much to my peers at the wrong moments or questioning the teachers' assumptions—always politely, but it was considered disruptive nonetheless because they got engaged in discussions with me about a specific detail and forgot to teach
My point is that grammar schools are full of intelligent, disruptive kids. The ones who are never disruptive are often just "Yes, Madam" students who aren't necessarily independent thinkers.

schools use ability setting (streaming) - sets at Maths English Science and later other subjects

The vast majority of UK schools use setting in Math from Year 8 at latest, but few set in other subjects, except possibly English, before GCSE.

(disclaimer- 3 kids through independent school so clearly feel it was worth it.)

i don’t agree with your maths based approach to the assessing the value of the education but adopting your method for the purposes of this post, there’s a flaw in your calculations in that the school day at most independents is typically at least an hour longer than most state schools. So at least 5 extra hours of schooling per week and 170 per year, which offsets the additional weeks of holiday argument.

DH and I both went to state and hated every second of it. The behaviour, the bullying if you showed the slightest interest in wanting to learn was awful, so we did village primary then flexi boarding school. It’s cost a fortune, but money well spent imo. Days were long 8am -6pm, then they can stay till 9pm if not a boarding night. They’ve both left with good exam results, good friends, good sports skills and a positive school experience.
Depends on your state options of course, but ours were poor so no regrets! We wouldn't be able to afford it now though with the VAT increase - we only had a year of inflated fees.

I went to a failing private school and an outstanding comp and got a much better education (and was much happier) at the comp. So I agree with everyone else that you need to compare individual schools. Where I am, there's only a couple of small private schools and they mostly seem full of children with SEN who couldn't cope with mainstream. If you want a bigger private school, you need to commute, which I didn't want for my kids, even if we could have afforded it.
State schools interestingly get better results for core subjects like maths and English, once you control the stats for wealth. (Ie an upper middle class child at a state school will typically get a better maths GCSE than they would at private). Private schools get better results in subjects like music and drama, but if that's something you want for your kid, you can provide it out of school at a fraction of the cost.
All schools are different too. Round here our state options include a superselective grammar, two ex-private schools who academised, single gender and mixed state schools, religious schools and schools with 60% FSM. You can't clump them all into 'state schools'.

They were obviously clever enough to pass anyway.

Very good point. Never thought about that. I thought in a state secondary or grammar school, the day usually ends at 15:30 and after-school clubs are not mandatory. I am curious about the typical end time for senior independent schools. Also, are extra-curricular after-school clubs in independent schools effectively mandatory?

Private schools get better results in subjects like music and drama,

Usually, that's true, but as you said, individual schools vary. I once compared a grammar school with a selective independent school and found that the grammar school is actually stronger in music—it has a larger orchestra with more Grade 5+ musicians, as well as higher participation and a greater number of Grade 9s in Music GCSE.

I went to grammar, and comp, but my children go to private day (well, one tried boarding but didn't like it).

Grammar and private schools the difference is expectations. The comp I went to, and the comp my DS's friends go to, there just isn't the expectation that your homework will be handed in, or that the class will behave, whereas at my grammar and at my DS's school it's strictly enforced (although at the grammar it was less needed, as we tended to want to learn - goofing off was much less common than in comp).

My kid's private school isn't academically selective, and supports everyone, and gets excellent results because it has the facilities, small class sizes, and staff to do so - and the support of parents who are paying for the schooling and so enforce the strict standards at home too.

If a comp had the same atmosphere, the same parental support to bring disruptive kids back into line, then it could achieve in the same way, but my personal experience is that that is much harder when you are a state school, as you have to accept all comers, and you don't have the ability to enforce discipline (up to expulsion) as effectively.

My DC’s lessons are from 8:15 to 4:30 incorporating an hour of “activity” immediately after lunch whether that’s sport, creative, supervised study etc. After lesson finish at 4:30 the kids are strongly encouraged (they need a very good reason to leave) to then do another hour and a half activity, usually sport but things like dance, drama, climbing wall, gardening club etc. minibuses/pick up is at 6pm. A long day but worth every penny in the sheer variety of opportunities and experiences beyond the curriculum. My other children grumble about the “unfair” holidays but I gently remind them that, as pp says above it’s a much longer day than their 3:30 finish!

Ours is majority boarding, so it's 6 days a week, sport every day, in school from 8-5ish (later in summer, earlier in winter - sport is the last lesson of the day, so it depends on daylight). There's also the option to stay and have dinner/do homework onsite. So it's intense, but they have a long weekend most months, and longer holidays, so it all works out.

Also, are extra-curricular after-school clubs in independent schools effectively mandatory?

Not where mine went. Lessons started just before 9, finished at 4, plenty of before/after/lunchtime clubs, plus sports matches on Saturdays. Again, you need to compare directly the schools you have near you, not look for a country wide rule.

Here where I live the sets are in Maths English Drama and Science in many of the schools from y7. From year 10 more sets.

That is also a reason why to select a school this one and not that one

It depends on the school. My DC’s academic school day finishes at 4pm, but they all stay until 5.15 to do extra curricular (sport or music) This is not mandatory, but helps me feel like I’m getting my moneys worth!

by contrast, our local state school finishes for the day at 3.05

My kids are all sporty so have Saturday morning matches too. I appreciate it is not all academics, but this considerably longer working week more than offsets the longer holidays

It depends on the schools not all private day schools have the same end times. Some 4pm, others homework club in library and others clubs so 5pm. Drama and music ensembles and it becomes 6pm. If you go to school Open days they will give all these information.

Lots of teachers in state schools go above and before every day. And I say that as an ex state school teacher and parent of dc at all of the op’s schools (10 of them, lots of dc, we went for right school for the child)
I suspect what your friends mum was referring to was an unsustainable amount of time dedicated to one pupil.

I was surprised by that point too as our days at various private schools have been much longer than at state. Music and sports activities are often before or after academic hours and can easily last until 9pm if there is a concert or a show with dress rehearsals.

Maybe it's because I went to a state school and so a bit thick, but I don't see why you think children in private schools are all of equal high intelligence and therefore not of "mixed ability." If both types of school stream, which I understand state schools do, then what's the difference?

Most state schools are streamed. It also depends on area and background. We live in a super selective grammar area but the surrounding area is also very very middle class. The 'poor' people here are poor but it does not equal the poor area I grew up in. For example - there's no bullying for doing well. If anything there's pressure to do your best throughout. Even in the comps. Not everyone is clever and they don't need to be. The grammars here are known for poor mental health of the adults - the pressure is unbelievable. I see the parents harp on about how the grammars here produce well rounded adults but I teach in a university - the students I see from those schools are not resilient or well rounded. I would be horrified if my child had such little knowledge of the real world and needed such spoon feeding to get through life - having mental breakdowns when they fail a paper, arguing with lecturers constantly, unable to see any shade of grey, it's got to be one or the other. We have done both private and now state - state has worked better now. We will ask our children if they want to board for a level as that's all we can afford. As pp said - chose what's suits the child and don't be afraid to change it.

the students I see from those schools are not resilient or well rounded. I would be horrified if my child had such little knowledge of the real world and needed such spoon feeding to get through life - having mental breakdowns when they fail a paper, arguing with lecturers constantly, unable to see any shade of grey, it's got to be one or the other.

Super selective grammars have a higher proportion of autistic children. What you are observing are clinical symptoms, not the result of "spoon feeding", whatever it means in the context of grammars.

I echo your concern about 'spoon-feeding.' My DD is currently in a private prep school, and I have observed among her classmates and their parents a sense of entitlement, complacency, and a tendency to look down on state schools—even academically superior grammars. I value pastoral care, but I do not want it to reach the point of spoiling. Perhaps it is better to be in a middle ground: some harshness and down-to-earth reality to mimic the professional world, balanced by a bottom-line commitment to valuing a child’s wellbeing.

I think it's a common assumption as pupils for private schools have to take and pass an entrance exam however that doesn't mean all pupils are of equal ability, some are much higher it's just a lack of the those were not able enough to pass the exam.

Yes. There are many high spectrum ASDs that are ingenious at maths and they end up in grammar schools.

Most state schools are streamed.

Most state schools do not stream. The survey indicates that, at most, a little over 10% of teachers report teaching classes where children are streamed by general ability. As over 90% of students attend state schools, it is not likely that "most" state schools are streamed. And I suspect that some of the teachers reporting that they teach in streamed schools actually teach in grammars, which often regard their entire school as a "stream".

Only a small percentage of comprehensives stream. A larger percentage set for some specific subjects, but it is still a minority for subjects besides math.