Anti-misogyny classes - have schools lost trust in boys, what went wrong

[Renati]

Why do I feel like the default expectation from boys in schools is that they are a threat so that we need to have these classes in schools.

What went wrong?

We all know and can feel what boys need and want in life to be good brothers, fathers, husbands and people in the community and somehow...instead of reinforcing these things in schools they are going off on a tangent based on what? The manosphere? Seriously? How distracted can an entire government get.

Is the only way out of this backwards caveman style teaching is to homeschool? Boys in school are not given the space to express themselves without first being told the reason the feel the way they feel is...innately probably because they are a person who needs correcting.

This doesn't just affect men, if you provide a society where men grow up resentful of the conditions and expectations set around them, you will have men more resentful for women....and guess what...this does encourage boys to not the become the brothers, fathers and husbands they could be because this is only possible if society creates a safe space for boys to feel secure and validated for their feeling growing up.

When I was in secondary school 10-15 years ago they could have done with some classes then. I’m glad we are finally taking steps to at least try and tackle the issue.

As for your sister and the telling your son to cross the street, I see both sides. Personally DH and I are focusing of teaching our son how to tell if a woman is scared or uncomfortable and to act accordingly. I am generally not bothered if a man is walking behind me, but say if it was a young girl who’s constantly looking over her shoulder, walking unnaturally quickly and generally seeming scared… just cross the street.

Men are a threat. They are physically stronger than us, and almost any man has the potentially to use deadly force on almost any woman. Being cautious around men you don’t know is always the best idea - and that’s something men have told me. Yes, women can be evil too, but if it’s me vs a woman it’s at least an even fight. If it’s me vs a man and I am unarmed my chances of getting away are much slimmer. As someone’s who’s been hit full force by a man, I’m under no illusion that I could beat up a bloke. Probably couldn’t even batter a teenage boy, and yes that is actually pretty scary.

As have I. My sons have been raised to treat others as they themselves would like to be treated and to consider how their actions may impact others, not just women.

If everyone has raised their sons so wonderfully, we wouldn’t be having the issues we are! I think the time has come to just accept that anyone can be radicalised.

This might be factor in why women want girl babies rather than it being about dressing them up, as is often claimed.

Yes. Given the huge amount of women who have suffered abuse from a partner, if you have a boy, you have a relatively high chance of raising a domestic abuser or a rapist. Even if you try your best.

I just want to say that after my comment and having disagreements I saw lots of notifications and was like oh no ! But you were all respectful and made good points. Thank you everyone for having a civil discussion about it with me rather than insult me as I see so often on mumsnet when there's a disagreement. I don't really use this board but it must be one of the nicer ones. I have been thinking about what you've all said.

Personally I don't generally feel scared if a man is walking some way behind me on the street but I get that other women do. I've been attacked by strangers but they were women. I do think a balance has to be struck. My sister said this to me when my son was only 13 or 14. How do we balance not unwittingly passing bad generalisations about men onto our son's while also teaching them to treat women well ? I don't want him to get the idea in his head that he's seen as a danger. But as I said he was younger then.

My son is 18 now so I think I will have a discussion with him about this and see his perspective on it. I think as I said I was just getting sick of my sister as she seems to have something against men, and was always ranting about them.

Thank you again for the civil discussion. It's had the effect of giving me respectful space to reconsider my stance

Did you watch the Louis Theroux documentary on the manosphere? The influencers aren’t trying to make boys and men more confident and happy, they are making money from boys and men who are conned into believing that if they follow the influencer’s rants then they too can be rich and have sexy women desperate to shag them. These influencers are stopped for selfies by boys who aren’t even teens yet which is worrying for the future of boys.

While your sons might not be victims of
misogyny, they may very well end up being the victim of violence from one of these angry men. You should be angry about that threat.

The course on misogyny isn’t needed for all boys and maybe your son doesn’t do things like watch porn and has healthy friendships with girls. Schools have become the only “parents” to kids who don’t even have parents who teach them that homophobia, ableism and racism aren’t ok. IF you’ve been here long enough the you’ve probably read posts where the OP has an h with a terrible attitude towards women, people with disabilities etc. If you live with a man like that and a mum who stays then that becomes normalized and that child becomes the one who ends up teaching others at school things like slurs.

While I accept that your son might not need a course on misogyny, there are boys who do. While what the school can do compared to the Internet and home is debatable but not even trying is unacceptable. What are the girls doing why the boys do this course?

I think that men need an equivalent change to feminism to steer masculinity back on course but this obviously can only come from men themselves and I don’t see a big demand or appetite to lead the way.

So true. I did part of my undergrad on online radicalisation and initially I had a lot of preconceived ideas about who can be radicalised, and while it’s true some things make you more venerable, it can be anyone. Anyone who thinks “oh not me/ oh not my child” is part of them problem. Thinking your immune to propaganda or that you’ve raised your kids to be immune to it is probably the worst stance to have.

I read a thread on reddit (yes I know) about the articles in the press the other day about how negatively young women view men. In the comments there were so many men, so angry and talking about how they are victims and yet few could gave examples. The reality is that when women aren't focused on them, and serving them many seem to feel like that is a form of abuse or oppression. Women on the other hand can point to actual statistics of male violence and sexual assaults on women, even murder.

Until men get real and stop crying when the facts are pointed out to them, stop coming up with concepts like "reverse rape" which is when a woman rejects you and denies you sex, which according to some men is more serious than actual rape, I shit you not! Until men stop acting like this and take some accountability then things aren't going to get any better.

Yet you just agreed with a poster who refused to suggest her teenage son crosses the street if he is walking behind a woman as she doesn’t like the idea of him being aware that he might be seen as “potential threat”.

Men don’t have the same concern about a man walking behind them so it’s not just about how they would like to be treated is it?

Do they? Source, please.

The source is my own life.

I did and do. I don’t recall actually having that precise conversation with my sons. They were just taught to think about the consequences of their actions generally irrespective of whether the person is male or female.

Interesting that no-one sees part of t he problem being 'sod men's feelings' (paraphrased}.

Demanding one with out balancing the other is just going to lead to problems.

So when you said you agreed with that poster you didn’t in fact.

So how are they expected to understand how their actions will impact differently on women to they way they impact on other men?

Therefore crossing the road or hanging back so they’re not matching a woman’s step is something they will probably naturally do.

Schools can only do so much but, as I was once told by a pupil, they go home and any good work done by the school is wiped out. It can't just be dumped on schools, like all the other jibs that a lot of parents can't be bothered with.

Of course schools cannot do it all. But it does not take much for kindness to be the thread of the narrative - no extra effort needed for that.

Even if they go home to crap, they have been exposed to a healthy outlook. That can only be for the good.

Lots of boys grow up with absent fathers and that is a massive problem. An involved father makes an incredible difference to all children. (As of course does an involved mother but it is comparatively rare to lack that.)

As long as involved father isn’t a misogynistic

I cannot tell you how appalling the behaviour of a significant minority of boys at my school is, despite really strong behaviour management and an excellent SLT. It's horrible for the girls. It's horrible for the teachers. It's also horrible for the majority of boys who don't behave like that (although it affects the more easily led).

I have considered leaving over it and I'm sure I'm not the only one

I think many parents would be really astonished to see how their sons behave.

Which lots of them are to be honest.

When a teacher tells you what your son is doing, believe them.

It would really help.

Yes.

The problem is too big for schools to deal with alone. Call me a prude but we need a complete ban on violent porn. It is just too easy to find videos of women being choked and being treated like a piece of meat. God knows what being exposed to that kind of material does to young brains. I don't give a shit about kink shaming, no one should be getting off on assault.