11+ 2025 support thread #2

[AquaPeer]

we are on the home run now! Continue to support, love and share in this thread

link to previous

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5200929-11-2025-support-thread?page=40&reply=147336748

continued good luck to all x

@Pipsquiggle I think in that case one OOC catchment child would simply displace one Bucks child. I do agree, it would drive me round the bend if I lived there.

The Blue Coat school has no catchment at all - if a London child sat the exam and was in the top 180, they'd simply be offered a place. This means we do get kids commuting from Preston and Warrington, which breaks my heart for those kids a bit - it seems like such a long day. Kids are put in either group A (definite place), B (reserve list, ranked) or C (very unlikely to get a place).

The batshittery in Liverpool is the fact that over half our schools are religious (a remnant of Northern Irish immigration) which means popular non religious schools are very very oversubscribed. Because the Blue Coat takes only 180 kids from a population of ~5000, it has a reputation as being very hot housey and competitive (not sure how true this is - it seems much less competitive than London schools). I know a lot of parents who really want their child to go to what is essentially the local comp, but sit the Blue Coat exam as back up.

The plus side is that, because we don't really have private schools and only one grammar, there are a lot of bright kids who go to normal schools. The downside is that competitive parents go to church for three years or move into catchment for popular schools instead and the unpopular schools suffer as a result.

DS didn't make it to QE, but we knew his chances were miniscule compared to others who have spent over 10k over the last 2 years for personalised tutors. Just reading another forum and seeing their despair now - can't imagine how bad it must be for their kid at home at the moment.
Anyway, whatever the outcome for our son, I'm so proud of him, because he's worked so hard and sacrificed so much of his free time (did only 1 club last year). This year definately looks more enjoyable for him. He comes home from school now and says he's bored and looks lost, asks what's supposed to do, LOL. So we are looking at some tennis / cricket / football clubs, let him have some fun...

Ah well done to your son Unicorn. I hope he enjoys the sports.

I am a public sector lawyer and can't really believe there aren't better ways around the legal issues if the councils wanted to sort it out. Oh well, I hope it doesn't affect anyone on the thread.

Good luck anyone waiting for results this week.

@CheerfulMuddler the OOC DC definitely cause more damage than 'just' taking the 121+ top spots (that they will never use) it's also the inflating of the pass mark.

If a local DC scored 119 or 120 (the next highest), they are not guaranteed a spot. They have to go through a review process, which takes several months. There are always DC who just miss 121 and are unsuccessful at review and do not get a place, which is very cruel.

I think there should be a rule for all schools, including the superselectives, that you cannot sit the test unless you are within 1 hour on public transport. And the school should be able to remove your place if you lied. That would fix a lot. The thing is one has to start with the superselectives as people end up applying elsewhere because they are displaced from their more local schools.
London superselectives have people flying in, that is completely unacceptable.

I think Kent had issues a couple of years ago with not enough kids passing the overall threshold further down into Kent, because the closer to London places allow out of country applicants. There are only a handful of highly sought after places but thousands applyging and it must cost the council a bomb. However, the reality is that you have kids from eg Bromley applying to Kent because they too are displaced from their local superselectives by kids applying from inner London and South East London too. No kid should be doing more than a max 1 hour commute, it is too much for them and not in their best interests, regardless of how good a school might be on paper.
Beths Grammar in Bexley in theory allows places for kids who failed Bexley but passed the Kent test, which indirectly encourages kids to sit Kent! It is all absurd, so what one school ends up doing, impacts everyone else.

St Paul’s girls school, a very expensive private school, has a policy of girls having to live within max 50 minutes of the school. State schools should all have that too and I think the address before 31.10 in Year 6 should be final for all. That would even things out a bit. If catchments are fixed for normal schools, they should be for all grammars as well. After that you are a late applicant.

No 11-year-old should have to commute more than an hour to go to school. Those kids must be permanently exhausted.
I agree there must be a better way to manage applications. Appeals etc must cost a fortune in time, money and stress. It wouldn't be too hard to set up a ranked reserve list or something - children on the reserve list automatically get a place if a child above them doesn't take it up. Especially if this is a known problem.
I worry about kids who have spent years preparing and then don't get in too. They must carry for the rest of their life.

I suddenly had a brain wave about lime bikes or Bromptons when my daughter gets older which would reduce her commute to Henrietta Barnett considerably. It is already around 50 mins (allegedly) but I do worry that's a lot. Dd1's school is a 20 min walk which also makes her social life easier

Why do some grammars limit to catchment areas and some leave it completely open?

i can see both sides in that limits mean it is open to "locals" though being open encourages diversity as not all families can afford to live in the catchment areas initially though will plan/budget accordingly on securing a place.

Bromptons are great. My husband had one when we used to live in London.
DS will likely be cycling if he gets into the grammar, which is slightly terrifying.

Some grammars are completely superselective (score only, whole country, sometimes even overseas if moved in by a certain day plus visa), some are pass only and then catchment aka distance only and in county as well, others are a mix (so some superselective places like Bexley top 180) and then in Kent you have “superselectives” with 2 scores, one for in county and then truly superselective for X number of out of county places. And then in Sevenoaks you have schools which admit on distance all the way to Orpington and beyond which is technically a London borough. It is all really confusing to be honest! It is whatever they decided to put in their Admissions Criteria, as long as it is legal.

The trouble is you do open yourself up to expensive appeals especially if you have 2 superselective scores, because frankly, if an out of county kid meets the in county score they have met the academic criteria so then you just have to prove detriment to school etc. I think the appeals won’t be as funded going forward so potentially they may have to start looking at narrowing their admissions criteria.
The reality is that the kids getting into the very superselective schools do churn out 8/9s primarily and then it guarantees more strong candidates going forward and as the Government keeps squeezing more and more on funding, the easier and cleverer the kids, the more the budget is manageable.

And then there are weird things in Trust Deeds, so DAO has to take a certain number of kids from Islington even though it's in Potters Bar. And then there are places like St Michael's which have religious criteria. The whole system is mad when you take a step back and look objectively.

I think Trafford is simiar in that they have a flat pass mark (334) that guarantees anyone in catchment a place. But Trafford schools also offer 'top 20' places to OOC students scoring top 20 marks. And the number of OOC children taking the test after enormous amounts of tuition to try to get one of these coveted top 20 places is huge. So again, the overall standard is pushed up because there are a lot of very, very well prepped kids taking it, many of whom do not score top 20 but still do very well and push the scores up regardless. And many of whom are doing tests in other parts of the country with very little intention of ever really moving to Trafford. And we also get people using it as a practice test for other grammars across Manchester who run their 11+s later in the academic year. It all has a knock-on effect for the local kids who end up missing out by a few marks.

Only two of the Trafford grammars run local reviews too.

Hey, Out of curiosity, my son sat the Trafford Consortium exam this year, and we are out of catchment—approximately 7 miles away (measured as the usual driving distance, not a straight line). I was wondering if anyone has an idea of the likely score needed for an out-of-catchment place.
Am I correct in thinking that children within the catchment area are considered first, and then, if there are remaining places, out-of-catchment applicants are offered seats based on their scores? Any insights or past experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Your son has done amazing, regardless of the outcome! Even I'm enjoying seeing my DD come home and not have to study hard! She relaxes, reads and just hangs out. Lovely see to see after all the hard work :)

There is definitely information out there on the 'lowest' top 20 OOC score given to each school every year. I am always surprised that it's a lot lower than you might think by the end of the allocation process (so at first it will look very high - 400ish - but as time goes on and those people don't take the places it filters down). I'm pretty sure I've seen a figure of around 355 for Sale/Altrincham which isn't really that much higher than the 334 cut off! I think some of this information is on the gov allocations web page, try whatdotheyknow too for these sorts of questions.

Also, distance is measured as a straight line, so you might not be as far out of catchment as you think!

Thank you very much. Dont think he will be able to score 350+. When we check the previous years there were mentioned 371 was the top 20 and they didn't mention anything OOC scores. Anyway fingers crossed for everyone still we don't know whether he can qualify or not.

@Dadsbabe missed a bit of your question there.

As far as I know, the schools offer top 20 scores a place regardless of catchment. But outside of that Trafford residents get priority regardless of score.

Any places left over after all Trafford residents have a place (and I think there are always places left) at Alty Boys and Sale is based by score ranking (I think). And I think Stretford is based on distance. Not sure about Urmston.

I’d also be keen that you can’t sit for grammars unless you’ve been in the state (not private) system for the whole of your primary education… but that’s a whole other debate

I love this idea

Is that true @IsThatYouPam that if you get 334 or above you’re guaranteed a place if you’re in catchment?! What if there’s a lot of people who pass and not enough space? Do they give spaces to those who score the highest?

Yes it's true historically at least - so far every single child in catchment has been offered a place even if they only scored the minimum pass.

If you look at the admissions outcomes site it tells you which oversubscription category they got down to each year. Last year Sale, Alty and Urmston look to have taken all catchment children and taken some OOC (not including the top scorers) and Stretford look to have been able to offer all catchment children a place too (I think their catchment is big as they include some areas which are Manchester but literally on their border!).

I don't know what would happen if too many catchment children scored as it's not happened before! I guess they would have to go by score.

Oh that is such a relief! We are in catchment for stretford and Alty boys but we thought due to the competitive nature of this exam we may not be offered a place. I was under the impression it was score based, so even if you pass you may not get a offer. You’ve made my day lol!
I’ll a look at that website too, thanks

@IsThatYouPam has hit the nail on the head. Last year it went to some of Cat 5 but all of cat 4 got in and I think it happens every year.