11+ 2025 support thread #2

[AquaPeer]

we are on the home run now! Continue to support, love and share in this thread

link to previous

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5200929-11-2025-support-thread?page=40&reply=147336748

continued good luck to all x

I think I'd agree with this. I genuinely don't think dd2 is cleverer than dd1. But dd1 has ASD and ADHD and is much better at making random connections and persuasive arguments than churning through prep. She could write to take your breath away at 10 but her spag is all over the shop. Dd2 can spell and list all the literary devices and weave them in but she doesn't quite have the same sense of poetry.

That wasn't quite the question though I don't think - it was more do you have to be naturally very clever to have a chance? And I don't know the answer but I do know it's a lot to go through without a guarantee of a reward so I do think it's a reasonable question. My approach was to follow their own lead. If they are keen, I support them, if they want to keep it casual, that's ok.

Some discussion on the eleven plus forum about QE numbers being the same as usual (if not slightly lower) so rumours about over 5000 boys sitting seem to be false. Quite reassuring to know that potentially the VAT hasn’t caused a big increase in children sitting - but my hunch is still that maybe more prep school kids will actually accept their places this year instead of passing in favour of an independent school.

Oh. And on the above discussion my experience this year makes me think that really kids need to be pretty bright to have a decent shot. My son is naturally academic but it has still been a slog to cover the everything and get consistent with exam technique. I have two younger boys, neither seem to find learning as easy as my eldest and I can’t imagine doing this with either of them!! Fingers crossed for a place and the sibling policy staying put 😂

I strongly suspect my DS will do much better in the 11+ than the SATS/GCSEs. He's Working Towards in English because although he writes amazing stories and he always reading, his brain is always zipping ahead and he can't be bothered to stop and put in punctuation. And his teacher says she knows he's working at Greater Depth in Maths but she can't prove it because he doesn't show his working, he just knows the answer.
Those are great skills for a timed multiple choice test (Blue Coat uses CEM select which is all about speed). Less helpful for a GCSE paper.

But then I found my primary school reports the other day and they said basically the same thing about me! And I got great GCSEs. So who knows?

Bucks is not quite as easy as people think. Many bright DC do not get the qualifying score due to out of catchment DC (mainly from London) bumping up the pass mark.

They have zero chance of getting a place and displace 2 local DC below the pass mark. Every single year it is soul destroying for local families.

The route cause is Grammar school deserts , there should be a Grammar school in each Borough but unfortunately this is not the case. Therefore, there are these rat races.

I agree with other poster that it’s likely to be next Friday.
it’s ridiculous that no date for release has been announced yet and that you can’t book open days at BGS or chis and Sid unless you know you have passed. I spoke to BGS and they said they don’t actually
know when results are going out and are just hoping it’s in time for people to book to see the school.

@Tiredlady1 or no Grammar schools. I think that would be the best option

But some people are entering a rat race which they can't win, but are fucking up the chances of other children. Bucks GS all have catchment areas so there's no point taking the Bucks 11+ if you !ive in London. Or Kent, or Yorkshire...

It's either a misunderstanding of admissions criteria or a spectacularly selfish thing to do. No idea which of those is true, but one must be.

Apologies not familiar with system, how does out of catchment affect the others on the list? Is it because the others do not progress to round two?

I was thinking if it was all exam rank then naturally it just falls to the next score if out of catchment excluded?

In Bucks, there is a qualifying mark - every child who achieves it gets a GS place (though not necessarily at their first choice GS). Getting a much higher mark than the qualifying mark is irrelevant. Children aren't ranked, and there is no second stage.

So children entering the exam but living out of catchment, and hence ineligible for a place, force a child who would otherwise have got an automatic place to go through the lottery of the review \ appeal process. You can't just give it to the next child on the ranking list because there is no such thing. Hope that makes sense!

@RzRzRz because qualification and allocation are treated separately - you need to achieve the standardised score of 121 to be deemed qualified for grammar (and out of catchment children taking the test - who do often tend to be very high scorers - skew that pass threshold upwards).
If you are deemed qualified, then you can be considered for a grammar place under admissions rules. But if you don’t achieve 121, you would need to go to selection review to try and still be deemed as qualified, in order to be in with a chance of securing a place at a grammar.
It’s not just a case of going to the next person on the waiting list if a qualified pupil doesn’t take up a school place.
(this is my understanding)

It's really messed up. I think I read that parents do it for free mock practice or move last minute. In our area so many families start moving closer to grammars in year 4. I only went for tests where we met the criteria.

Is it fair though that some affluent areas have more grammar schools? If there was a grammar in each borough ,this would reduce. Some of the ridiculous behaviours, as I do think grammars are useful for children who work at a faster pace.

More broadly this is highlighting the lack of confidence in the comprehensive system. I've heard so many stories of children being bullies for being bright or having to dumb themselves down to fit in.

In Bucks there is a standardised qualifying score of 121. Any score of 121 or more you have 'passed' the test. The average score is 100.

Last year, from London boroughs alone, over 650 DC achieved over 121. Of these passes only 15 DC were offered a place in Bucks. This means that over 1300 local DC were pushed below an inflated pass mark.

It is really shit. I hate it. I am sure lots of DC use Bucks as exam practise before super selective schools but it really fucks over local DC. Other DC take it because their parents don't seem to be able to read or understand the admissions criteria, this is even more infuriating. All admissions for schools are clear that living in catchment by 1st September BEFORE you take the exam is one of the first criteria applied for a school place

Why don't these schools adapt their systems to reflect reality? Ensuring DC are in catchment to sit the exam or lowering the pass mark? It's the same in London. At Latymer loads get pushed out of getting a rank 2 mark by out of catchment people such that the English papers are almost meaningless. This could easily be remedied so that rank 1 scores reflect English performance better which would be better for in catchment families and for the school.

Not really. Having gone through this process twice, I would prefer that Grammar schools didn't exist and secondary schools got more investment with effective streaming in core subjects.
11+ is just so much pressure for 10 year olds

Streaming or even better, setting makes more sense. More flexibility for later developments and enables kids to be in top sets for the subjects where they excel and have more support otherwise. Less social segregation as well.

I'm not sure @Pipsquiggle's maths is right.
Is it that the top third of candidates get a pass mark? In that case, one London child would bump 2/3 of a local child, not 2.
(Say 300 Bucks kids sat the test and no one else. In that scenario, 100 would pass, 200 wouldn't. Now say 3 well-prepped London kids also sit and pass high. In that scenario 101 kids pass (98 local, 3 London) and 202 don't. 3 London children bump 2 local kids out of a place. One London child bumps 2/3 of a local child. The actual numbers are much larger, but it's the same principle.)
I can absolutely see it's infuriating as a local parent though. You would think schools would require proof of address before they let children sit the test. Especially given how expensive the 11+ is to run.
I don't think grammar schools should exist either, honestly. The heartache they create isn't worth it.

@CheerfulMuddler here's how it was explained to me the first time we went through it:
All DC take the 11+ test - local and out of catchment (OOC). Bucks knows how many grammar school places they have - let's say 1000 places for ease - so set the 121 qualifying score at the point where the top 1000 DC are at 121 and above.
Let's say 500 of these DC are OOC, they have not only taken a 121+ 'spot' (placed in the top 1000 places) but they have also artificially raised where the qualifying score is hence local DC are also pushed below the artificially high qualifying score.

I mention London as that's the biggest OOC cohort but you can see DC across the country taking the test. From this thread, you can see that the London grammars are highly competitive and very challenging so these super bright DC taking the Bucks test really do scupper the qualifying score for local DC.

The reason why Bucks allows anyone to take the 11+ is a legal one - there was a case years ago where a person sued either a borough or the Dept of Education and set a precedent that DC should be allowed to take any selective test. I don't know the ins and outs of it. Hence my DC could take the Trafford test if we wanted to.

It's a really rubbish system ☹️

I know lots of people who have sat DAO, Laymer and Herts consortium for “practice”. Bit different as none have a physical pass mark but it does make it hard to gauge your child’s chances on results day as you don’t know how many of the higher scorers are actually going to apply/take the space if they are offered it. Frustrating but not in the same league as Bucks.

They do have cut offs for rounds 2 though. Where some DC might have had their chances to shine if the practice people hadn't taken their spots. I think some people must have it as a fallback or have a change of heart which is fair enough but a pure mock is not very fair on the school. I still think they could do something about it if they changed their published admissions criteria though - there must be ways for people moving into catchment to apply late. Though part of me wonders why they get special treatment as far distance based schools they are at the back of the queue

That’s true for DAO/Latymer for sure. Bucks should require proof of a Bucks address to sit the rest. Would stop the madness.

@Lamarais legally any selective state has to let any DC that wants to take the test, take it.

Bucks Grammar schools are very explicit in their admissions criteria, one of the first points is that you have to live in catchment by the 1st September BEFORE your DC takes the test. Unfortunately this does not stop hundreds of OOC DC taking the test and buggering it up for local DC