Which A-level to drop - French or English Lit?

[stickygotstuck]

DD is applying to 6th form colleges. She wants to do 4 levels but two of the colleges say she can only take 3 (not happy about that but that's a different issue).

DD is not sure what she wants to do after college, so has chosen Maths to keep her options open.

Her choices are:

Music (non-negotiable)
Maths
French
English Lit

Which one should she drop? She can't decide between French and English Literature.

Firstly I would say it’s not a good idea to take four A levels; it’s a lot of work leading most likely to dilution of grades, and as such not advised. (FM is an exception).

You say she is taking maths to keep options open – but what options? As a sole science it is unlikely to open up STEM options (which is fine of course) and it won’t really open the best unis for maths as many of them look for FM (unless not offered at the school). Maths A level is a great one to have, for sure (my DS2 took it) but it’s not easy and taking it only “to keep options open” when it doesn’t is perhaps not the best plan IMHO. If she loves maths of course then happy days. What is her GCSE PG for maths? DS got an 8 and then a hard-won B at A level. An A was perhaps possible if he had really given it everything.

So maybe drop maths? If she is doing maths bc she loves it, then drop the one of the other two she likes least or is weakest in. Eng lit opens doors to Eng lit degrees, French to MFL degrees; dropping either will basically close that door (again, fine; all A level choices will close doors). So might she want to take MFL or Eng lit further? What is her PG for French GCSE? I would recommend at least a 7 to take A level.

MFL is my subject btw and I love that people want to take it further. You may read that native speakers mean she won’t stand a chance of a top grade but I think that’s not really an issue if she is prepared to work hard. The exam does not look for native speaker ability (and in fact states that).

So overall I don’t have an answer for you! Just some things to think about I guess. Ultimately it needs to be her decision and one she is happy with.

Why is music non-negotiable? It is the easiest to replicate outside of school - if she is playing at a decent level and wants to pursue it she will get UCAS points for grades 6 and above for a related course and audition will be what gets her the place not music A-level.

Insisting on 4 is pointless. She needs to work backwards from what she wants really, she must have a rough idea as this time next year she will be starting to look at unis. Both French and English Lit are difficult for different reasons and both have incredibly high grade boundaries.
If she doesn't mind either I'd first check what curriculum her chosen college does for English Lit and what books the teacher has chosen to be studied. That can make or break the enjoyment of the course. After that, I'd just choose whatever subject she's stronger in as they're both humanities and will keep similar doors open.

Is she a native French speaker? This would be my absolute decision maker.

DD did Spanish A Level - not a native speaker - and about 80 percent of people in her class were either Spanish or South American. It definitely creates an un-even playing field and and the boundary is set high - by people who are effectively doing an A Level in their mother tongue rather than a MFL.

If she isn't a fluent French speaker, I would drop French for that reason.

Very few colleges allow 4 a levels any more.

Your child does not have a consistent set there.

Maths doesn't keep options open. It'll allow her to progress onto a maths degree but without any science a levels she won't be able to progress onto science degrees.

She needs to make a decision about what she wants to close off.

If she is looking towards a music degree I would suggest at least one essay subject (my DS did a music degree and as an arts subject it is essay and performance based) and drop the maths. History might also be helpful.

I’m not sure doing maths just to keep your options open is a great idea. I think that would probably be the one I’d drop unless there are other reasons she wants to do maths.

Maths is really hard at A level. I would only do it if she is very strong indeed at maths.

Music, French and English Lit seems like a nice set of subjects that will keep lots of options open.

I agree with this. I'm not sure what doors maths will be keeping open tbh. She'll need FM or another science for most maths degrees and Maths A level gets very hard in Y13.
Could she do English, French, Music and Core Maths? Lots of colleges are starting to offer Core Maths in place of an EPQ. It's equivalent to half an A Level, and more real life maths so would help her if she ever went down the self employed route in music.

I actually think maths is the easiest to replicate outside of school, there's no coursework and it's purely linear. Music A Level would be really difficult to do outside of school and instrument grades, although get some UCAS points, are not equivalent to the A Level. UCAS points are also only relevant if you're applying to unis that use them for admissions, most of the prestigious unis use grades only.

Former teacher who studied these subjects ...

If she's equally good at all of them I'd recommend
Music
Maths
English Lit

So dropping French.

French is harder to reliably know the grade you'll get as it depends on the vocabulary that comes up in the exams and split skillset across reading, listening, writing. With English, it's a finite set of texts to know and roughly the same skills across different exams. IMO it's easier to prep for in terms of exam technique.

This will also keep her options open .

Eng lit opens doors to Eng lit degrees, French to MFL degrees; dropping either will basically close that door

Mostly. My son has a degree in a more unusual language, taken from scratch without any MFL at A level, though, so it is possible (though unlikely to be the case for French or Spanish). He did have a decent grade in English Lit, and in a couple of different GCSE languages.

She can still study law I think with either combination. It is quite normal to be really good at Music, Maths and languages/English. Suggests she looks at Law degrees in universities she is interested in and works back from there. Could be a lawyer in the Music industry type thing?

There are some degrees courses where maths will be required and/or strongly recommended but that don't need more sciences. Apart from maths itself, these would include economics, finance, psychology, computer science...So it's not a completely crazy notion. It's also just really useful eg my daughter did modern languages and linguistics and found her AS maths very useful for linguistics, even though it wasn't required.

But really, I think she should go with the subjects she loves (and where the course teachers have a good reputation)

MFL degrees are also a lot less competitive. My DDs friend has just got an offer for French and Law without French A Level

OP also does she like coding? Lots of kids with that profile are excellent at coding. You need Maths for computer science, at a very minimum.

I’d drop French rather than Eng…Eng lit is described as a “ facilitating” subject ( as are modern languages) but Eng lit is useful prep for multiple degrees that may involve essay writing and analysis.

It is hard to know without a lot more info (what your daughter is thinking of afterwards, what she enjoys doing, her skill set) but, based on just your OP, I would drop English Lit.

I think you get a fair amount of literature in French anyway, and she will get essay writing skills from either combo, but languages give you a different skill set and potentially open up jobs in France. And maybe a French boyfriend!

Thank you for your replies everybody.

Working backwards, while ideal, won't work with DD. She has no idea what she'd like to do. The very fact of having to choose is very stressful for her and she is young for her age (there are some SEN involved).

Another specific consideration is that we are looking at college as a blank slate to improve her confidence and undo the damage secondary school has done to her mental health. While at the same time trying to plan for the future if she recovers well enough and wants to go to uni. No pressure 😁.

Now for the purely academic side -

I hear you on the most colleges not doing 4 A levels anymore. However, DD would really benefit from at least starting 4 then dropping 1 as she is very unsure.

The issue is neither of the two colleges she has applied to are letting her put 4 down in her application. One has said she can try all on taster day, but that's not until June/July and she feels stuck not knowing for sure if she'll be allowed to take one of them. She was talked into dropping maths at interview (for similar reasons to what @clary , @Octavia64 and @RafaistheKingofClay give). But she regretted it straight away!

@Needanadultgapyear , music is non-negotiable because it's the only thing that kept her in school for the last 2 years and not drop out. That's the only thing she is sure about.

@Octavia64 and @Foxesandsquirrels , can I ask why you say Maths does not keep options open? DD has expressed some interest in very disparate things - Agricultural land management, Sound Engineering, Phsychology, Data Analysis... Would Maths not be useful for those? And French, English and Music preclude the first two?

Octavia64, can Music be consiered an essay subject at A level? In which case, maybe she could drop English Lit.

Interesting what you say about Maths being easier to pick up outside school Foxandsquirrels.

@clary and @SlightlyJaded , here is an daft question (I was not educated in the UK ) - Why does the amount of native French speakers impact on everybody's grades? Is it that there is a finite amount of grade A* to give, rather then it being awared to everybody who achieves the required level?

French is her best subject.

DD had a friend who chose to do core maths in Year 12 because she loved maths but it didn't really "go" with her A Level choices. Is that an option?

@stickygotstuck just to flag that schools/ 6th forms can’t accommodate all subject combos…you may end up having to choose a combo based on what the school can offer anyway. If French is her best subject ,sometimes it’s best to go with what people love best ,as long as their grades are good enough.

Oh, I just thought of something I really need to ask!

From several conversations I've had with parents, it sounds as if the main point of A levels is getting as high a grade as possible. Regardless of the subject (assuming we are talking facilitating subjects only).

So if DD was, say, bilingual in German, would it make more sense to take German A level than pretty much anything else ? Bearing in mind DD has no clue what to do next.

Thanks @Papagei . Yes, we are aware. In fact, she cannot stay at her current school for that very reason.

@Foxesandsquirrels and @RedSkyDelights , is Core Maths useful from the poitn of view of future uni applications. One of the colleges we have looked at offers this. But my understanding is that, like EPQs, they are discouraged because the don't count much, as it were.

@stickygotstuck if your child has SEN and mental health challenges then ,no, the aim of A levels is to get through it with her mental health and self esteem intact!

I’m sorry your DD had that experience in Spanish @SlightlyJaded
But genuinely, not being a native speaker is not a bar to a high grade in MFL A level. The exam spec as I say specifically says native fluency is not required (in the speaking assessment for example) and as an assessor I have certainly worked with non-native speakers who did excellently well in that aspect.
In fact native speakers (again IME, obvs limited) can sometimes think that that is all that is needed and they will sail through it – when in fact they need knowledge of a range of serious political and social topics and of a book and a film. Language skills alone will not cut it and I have certainly assessed more than one student who thought they could wing it on their native or mother-tongue skills and didn’t need to read the book or study the topics.

OBVIOUSLY a native speaker who also puts in the work will do really well; but what I am trying to say is that a non-native who has a good level of language skills (hence a grade 7+ suggested) will be able to do well. They will have to work; but all A levels are hard.

To those who say you can do an MFL degree without the A level – yes of course I am aware that unis are increasingly offering MFL ab initio; they do often like to see some MFL at A level tho. I wonder how many French degrees there are where French A level is not required? Bit depressing tbh. And also – surely doing the A level will really set you up much better for the degree? French at degree level after dropping it post year 11 – wow that would be tough. Might as well make things easier – if she might want to take MFL degree that is. Where was the French and law offer without A level French @Foxesandsquirrels ? Quick google and both Birmingham and Bristol require A level French for their French and aw course.

Agree actually re maths – yy economics and things like psychology may suggest maths A level and not need FM. It’s quite a niche list tho tbh.