Which A-level to drop - French or English Lit?

[stickygotstuck]

DD is applying to 6th form colleges. She wants to do 4 levels but two of the colleges say she can only take 3 (not happy about that but that's a different issue).

DD is not sure what she wants to do after college, so has chosen Maths to keep her options open.

Her choices are:

Music (non-negotiable)
Maths
French
English Lit

Which one should she drop? She can't decide between French and English Literature.

I disagree about Maths. So many tests for jobs require maths. It also makes for balance where the other two subjects are arts subjects.

Physics without maths is not a good idea.

Many sixth forms won't allow it.

The reason is that the maths a level teaches you the "theory" as it were and the physics a level uses that. The physics a level on it's own doesn't teach the "theory".

They are very very interlinked.

That's my thinking @ScrollingLeaves .

Having said that, I'm not sure Music is as 'arty' as many people think, strange as it may sound. Hence why it tends to suit people who are good at Maths. It's an odd one, I think. You need to be able to write essays, do some complex calculations and have a certain sensitivity.

Thanks @Octavia64 , lots of food for thought.

Just out of interest, does anyone know how common it is for a child to do really well at Physics but badly at Maths?

@stickygotstuck i do get where you are coming from having a ND child myself with a history mental health challenges. If it’s any comfort, many year 12 teens have no idea what they want to do career wise or at uni , hence why I think for a child facing challenges around learning and their mental health , and who has no definite career plan, they should focus primarily on what they enjoy most and feel excited about studying , rather than worrying as to what will happen in the future . A levels are very intense these days, much more than I remember , and kids can feel they are being put straight on a conveyer belt rather than getting to enjoy this time of their education. We also changed schools so ,again, that in itself is a whole lot of added stress in terms of making new friends. Most 6th forms allow them to change subject in the first term if there is space available. As pp’s suggested, I like the idea of going through the subjects and giving them a rating, then looking at what the A level actually involves in terms of coursework and exam style may be more helpful to her then trying to hedge bets of future uni courses.

Universities are mostly interested in 3 A Levels . So taking anything beyond that is not "useful" for future uni applications.

However, your OP suggested you were keen for your DC to take 4 A Levels. This is also not "useful" for uni applications and can be detrimental due to the additional time involved in taking 3 rather than 4. Taking core maths (or an EPQ as someone else suggested) would be a good way to enable her to study more widely (assuming that's her main motivation for wanting 4 A Levels) for less overall effort.

I see what you are both saying but tbf I never said the % getting Astar is the same for German as say history. Like FM where lots get top grades - bc they are very good mathematicians! I do suspect there is a figure for each subject tho to some extent.

@Papagei , thank you for your input as the parent of an ND child. I agree with you that the priority should be their enjoyment and buiding them up. There is the temptation to kill two birds with one stone, as it were, but this may not be the time. Especially with a new school, new people, new bus and so on.

@RedSkyDelights , the point of 4 A levels is to keep options open because this is a child has no idea of what to do after, and A leves are so incredibly narrow (I am personally having a tough time accepting just how narrow at such a young age).

Several teachers have told me that their schools are discouraging EPQs because, essentially, they take study time away and they don't count that much for Uni. So I guess if she's not doing a 4th A level, she might as well not do anything else.

And that still leaves the question of which one to drop in the end! 🤔

I think maths is really useful! Yay for maths!

But maths A level is not required as such for those job tests; and on its own, no other science, it doesn’t open that many doors at uni. As others have said actually.

Several teachers have told me that their schools are discouraging EPQs because, essentially, they take study time away and they don't count that much for Uni.

I think it's a shame that sixth form study is now being reduced to "how much does it count for uni?". Particularly as you've said that your daughter is not sure about her future direction, so may not even go to university, so she's hopefully choosing options because they are subjects she enjoys.

DD did an EPQ; she learnt some valuable skills, and, most importantly, she got to find out more about a topic she was interested in, that was outside of any standard syllabus. As it happens she did get a grade reduction in her offer at one of her preferred unis due to having an EPQ, but that wasn't the reason she chose to do it.

@stickygotstuck ,

It is absolutely untrue that universities don’t like EPQs. It totally depends on the uni and the course.

For universities like Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial, they are a complete waste of time. But some universities and course really like them.

And, also, it is perfectly possible to do Physics A level without Mathematics these days. Obviously Physics is a mathematical subject and you have to be mathematically minded, but you don’t need to do a Maths A level. A few years ago the syllabi were changed to accommodate medics who wanted to do three sciences, so there is now no compulsory calculus in the A level. It is a easier with the Maths (especially the mechanics) but if you love Physics and are mathematically able, you should definitely consider it.

One of my daughters did English Lit, maths and music A levels. I thought it was a good combination which allowed her to demonstrate different abilities.

I would always recommend maths to anyone who was good enough at it (but absolutely wouldn't recommend it to anyone who wasn't)! I think there is a big step up from GCSE to A level. My daughter got an easy A* for GCSE but just scraped an A at A level by the skin of her teeth.

Assuming her maths is strong enough to continue, I would give up French and keep it up privately.

For sound engineering, physics maths and music would be perfect.

Whether the job itself would be is a very different question (how is she with unpredictable hours, frequent new people, rapid safety assessments and unreliable income, for instance? Oh, and loud noise?)

I haven't read the full thread but I think some early replies have really undersold how useful maths A level is.

I think it's hugely underrated in terms of opening options. Lots of career paths require numeracy/ability with maths - economics, accounting, pharmacy, anything data-related, engineering, psychology, etc

Obviously those are STEM- leaning but you never know where you will end up in your career. It really opens up doors I think to the extent I wish I'd done maths A level and I'm 42!

I disagree about dropping maths. Sure you have to have proved yourself at GCSE or don't bother - it's tough. But if she's sound with her maths, do it. My Cambridge educated English lit grad found many grad jobs specify 'maths to at least A level'. It's a really useful A level.

Tbf @CanOfMangoTango i kind of do too - instead of my The Secret History nonsense Ancient Greek lol.

I think ppl were thinking of it in the sense of keeping uni doors open, which it doesn’t very much, so that wouldn’t be a great reason to take it. But for interest, general education, enjoyment of maths, usefulness in later life, yes for sure.

interesting @faffadoodledo about grad jobs too! Hope for ds2 yet!!

@stickygotstuck can you share your DD’s PG for maths?

I would actually drop English Lit. She's good at MFL so keep it. Music is non negotiable so keep it. Maths is useful for all sorts of courses. Business, management, law and many others. Keep it. Music in many ways is the outlier but someone has to do it and no one thinks it's easy. Both MFL and Maths are on the Cambridge university list of preferred subjects for all arts, social sciences and humanities degrees so these two are fine. Music is on their "relevant" list so ok too. English lit is another in the recommended list but 3 from this list isn't needed.

Universities have no idea who is a native speaker. How do they find out if your name is Smith? I know plenty who have MFL degrees but are native speakers. Of course the A level and degree is easier with that advantage. There's just greater depth of knowledge often built up substantially by time spent abroad that others don't get. However those who get high grades without any advantage add to be admired. In the case here, do what comes more easily but maths, music and French is fine.

Acoustic engineering at Southampton needs Maths plus another STEM subject from a short list so Maths on its own wouldn't help. They also offer Acoustics and Music but can't see which subjects are required.

Suggest dropping English lit or Maths. French includes French literature/film. Most science subjects are better in combination with at least one other science. The Cambridge The Subject Matters guide is quite useful.

@stickygotstuck ,

There seem to be.

sorry, posted in error!

@StuckBehindtheTallboy , that has occurred to me about the noise and unpredictability. That's why we're not assuming it's what she'd like to do, but more an indication of where her interests lie. If she was sure, then Maths and Physics would be it.

@faffadoodledo thanks, that's good to know and what I was hoping to hear.

@TizerorFizz I'm leaning towards dropping English Lit too. I just don't think writing a bit in a foreign language is the same as going in depth into your native one, the one you are going to be communicating in with a high level of sophistication every day at work and in life. But I'd unis say it is, that suits DD fine!

@clary I think that's the key. Both DD and I are looking at this from the usefulness later in life/future jobs .

@stickygotstuck what is her predicted grade for maths? Unless she gets an 8 or 9 at gcse I wouldn't even consider A Level maths.

@Needanadultgapyear Please ignore me! My typo turned automatically into your user name and can't remove it, sorry!

@pengwing she's aiming for an 8 but it's not clear cut

I studied A level English Lit and French. I would say that the difference between French GCSE and French A level is night and day. You literally go from conversational French to reading and analysing French classics. I was almost fluent when I went on to study it at university. I'm glad I studied English Lit and French together as they were quite companionable.

@stickygotstuck honestly unless she gets that 8 I'd leave maths a level alone.

@Printedword maths has absolutely nothing to do with music/musical ability. Music is a creative and "feeling" subject. Maths is a practical and pragmatic subject. I know a lot of musicians and none of them are good with maths. Also, music cannot really be learned academically- you can train for years and still be shite. It's very dependent on natural talent.

OP I'd advise to drop maths- unless you're wanting to go into jobs such as engineering, you only realistically need maths GCSE and will hardly ever use it again. If not that, then French- almost all of the educated world speaks English and a second language is not needed.

When tho? I read four books in French for A level. Many years ago. Today you read one, do classic not classics, and study a film. And the book doesn’t have to be a classic either - no need to read Moliere. Tho you can.

I agree the A level is a big step up, but they all are and that’s as it should be. Hard work? Yes, bring it on.