Which A-level to drop - French or English Lit?

[stickygotstuck]

DD is applying to 6th form colleges. She wants to do 4 levels but two of the colleges say she can only take 3 (not happy about that but that's a different issue).

DD is not sure what she wants to do after college, so has chosen Maths to keep her options open.

Her choices are:

Music (non-negotiable)
Maths
French
English Lit

Which one should she drop? She can't decide between French and English Literature.

Thanks @BarnacleBeasley (I read that several times as Barnsley!)

Yes, she needs this settled asap. She has a conditional offer in two large colleges, so we are hoping that swapping later won't be an issue.

College 1 said leave it at 3 (no Maths), then come on taster day and add Maths/swap if you need to. But it's still unfinished business!

The other one is saying 3 only, so DD needs to drop one for the application to be accepted. I guess she could also change after taster day, but yes, this is the one causing the angst right now.

Similarly to a PP, with DS we ended up drawing an A-Level Venn diagram (no prizes for guessing which way he's wired!).

Three interlinked circles - one for 'subjects I really enjoy or I'm interested in e.g economics that wasn't offered at GCSE'; one for 'subjects I'm likely to get a 7, 8, 9 in'; and one for 'subjects that I need to take to pursue a particular career/university course (e.g maths for an economics degree or chemistry for medicine).

We could then see where the overlaps were and some interesting conversations - 'you say you hate chemistry and will probably get a 7 in it but you're still considering medicine' - what needs to change?

I agree with someone else that coming out of 6th Form/college with mental health intact, some life-skills and maturity that they don't always have at 16, an enjoyment of learning, and (hopefully) some qualifications that reflect a DC's interests and ability are the indicators of success here. There are always options post-18 whether that's repeating a year, taking something different, foundation degrees, apprenticeships or just having a break from studying.

I think most subjects seem easier and quicker if you are good at them! My DD1 didn't get overly stressed at MFLs and DD2 did two arts related subjects. Both achieved great A level results on those subjects but they enjoyed them.

I think with some subjects it's difficult to know exactly how A level will pan out. The 100% maths students getting a 9 at GCSE will probably find maths easier than a grade 7 or even 8 that's hard won. The people I know who like MFLs tend be logical with good memories. You just have to learn the grammar. English always suits students who really enjoy reading for pleasure. If it's being forced, it's maybe not the subject for you. So analyzing what type of learner you are and what effort you are prepared to put in should be evaluated. Plus natural talent and learning for a challenge should not be discounted. If the maths grade is a ?, then maths A level could be tricky and quite a big stretch.

There's always two MFLs! No reason not to take them with music.

Thanks @HallStairsandLanding . We shall be drawing Venn diagrams forthwith! 😁

Thank you also for the reminder of what really matters and the fact that there are other options available.

@TizerorFizz , I agree, obviously!
But I think there is a lot to be said for determination, hard work and perseverance over just what you are good at. Coasting only works until it stops working, IYSWIM. And then what?

The 2 MFLs and Music would simplify things. But DD thinks that's pointless (and almost cheating!).
Personally, I worry that that combination does not offer an 'essay' subject like English does 🤔

@stickygotstuck What's the point of only learning the stuff you are good at?

This is a reasonable question and I do see what you are saying. The thing is tho with maths (and MFL as it goes) the A-level really builds on and assumes a raft of knowledge and ability that (for example) history just does not.

The main way this is evidenced is via GCSE. And the MFL A level, while of course so much more advanced than GCSE, yes, the same skills are there, grammar and vocab will be expected.

There was a student in DS2's maths A level class who got a 6 at GCSE; they struggled so so much. In an early test where DS with an 8 got 47/94 or something, this student scored zero. They were just not good enough at maths. Maybe the 6 was thought to be an aberration from someone capable of more (as your DD's possible 6 in French clearly would be) but they just were not good enough at maths to get much at all out of the A level. IIRC they ended up switching.

Btw tho I realise your DD will not be happy with a "maybe" kind of vibe, she could switch easily within the first week IME anyway. Especially if it's a big setting with multiple classes for maths etc. I strongly advise keeping up with both maths and French between May and September if either or both is seriously on the table.

@stickygotstuck I would not say it's coasting. It's working within your reasonable capacity leaving time for other pleasures in life. My DDs worked but A levels didn't consume them. They found time in school for drama, music, dance, various clubs and school trips. They had very full lives. In other words, a broad education which suited them. I'm not sure anyone other than a maths genius coasts at A level!

Lots of schools don't agree to GCSE 6 in maths taking the A level. It's too big a leap.

So true. I'm in my 40s and Maths was my easiest A-level (others French and Physics). but further maths would have been really hard work.

If you can do maths it's easy and homework is pretty self limiting leaving time for more finicky perfectionist stuff in music and essays subjects.

French and music would probably have "enough" essay content to get by - I did law with French off the 3 above and ended up doing history type modules as my options getting good results despite dropping history before GCSE.

I'm in my 40s too and did French and maths. My experience was that I was really good at French so I found that very easy. BUT it doesn't mean it was cheating or taking the easy way out as OP's DD seems to be worrying - I still learnt loads. I read books and watched films (used to set the VCR timer to record all sorts of weird arthouse stuff on BBC2 and Channel 4) and was delighted that it all 'counted' as work. In general, I think DCs do well at things they enjoy, and being good at something is motivating.

@stickygotstuck ,

’ A C in Maths means that on the day you had the exam, you recalled a decent amount of facts but not all.’

No, it really doesn’t! Firstly, the C can come in in the 40s, which means you have failed to grasp more than half the syllabus.

Secondly, Maths isn’t like that. You should be understanding it, not learning it (obviously there is a little to learn, but the content is minuscule if you can work stuff out).

I taught Physics for a decade, and those who got a C at A level were really shaky (to put it politely) at Maths.

*A C at Maths A level

I started with Maths, Chemistry, Biology, English Lit and History (yes, five!).
After a term dropped Chemistry and switched Maths to Accounting as I just knew I wouldn’t get As in those subjects.
If I had my time again I’d do Economics, Maths and History.
Could your daughter swap Maths for Economics? (Unless she finds Maths very easy).
French over English Lit all day long.
Could she manage Music, Econ, History and French?

Others have probably said this but is it possible to get hold of the syllabus for each subject from the colleges, or at least an answer of whether the subject involves a good deal of coursework or is 100% exam assessed.

This is something that I wish I had thought to ask back when I was selecting my own A-Levels. I ended up with 2 of my 3 subjects being 100% assessed by final exams which stored up a lot of stress for the last 6 months of Y13!
Of course if your DD thrives in an exam scenario, perhaps she'd prefer to avoid subjects that are heavy on coursework!

Tbf most A levels are predominantly exam assessed now. French is totally unless you count the research project I guess - but that is assessed in the speaking exam. Dd did an NEA for English lit and there is one for history too but it’s not a large element.

A C in Maths means that on the day you had the exam, you recalled a decent amount of facts but not all

The entire reason I did well in maths (and physics) was that you didn't usually need to recall facts, just work it out from first principles. I was great at Latin for similar reasons (and a bit shit at stats, where you did need to remember definitions, and very very bad at geography and history, which were alllll about the recall at that level).

I'm not really getting the impression that she likes maths. It doesn't sound like it sings to her the way languages and music do.

Core maths is actually very useful from DD experience of it in relation to life skills so she would be learning something new.
Also it does count towards UCAS tariff.

After DS and DD experiences, my advice would be to do A levels they will enjoy.

Friend's DS is doing Geography at Liverpool uni through clearing - doesn't have it at A level

Yeh a fair few unis don’t require the A level for a degree in geography or history

There's a lot of bums on seats in this day and age! Some universities cannot afford to be very choosy.

Thanks every one for the further comments.

I must admit, Maths appeals to me as as subject for the lesser amount of work. Like @Randomsabreur says, stuff like finishing a music composition would probably absorb half of DD's time!

@MakkaPakkasCave , thanks for the suggestions but I'm afraid not. She is hating History at GCSE unfortunately, and has no interest in Economics.

@ChiaraMontague , we did think of finding course-heavy subjects and, other than music (to a degree) there isn't much around like @clary says.

@StuckBehindtheTallboy , I think we are talking about the same thing really. Call them 'principles' in Maths if you like rather than 'facts', but in an exam DD can go blank, regardless of how ingrained knowledge was 5 minutes before. Such is the effect they can have on her.

DD does like Maths, she understands them and she says she finds them interesting. I myself find them dull as dishwater, but I have to believe her!

@Justasmallgless and @TizerorFizz , the 'bums on seats' trend rings true, sadly. However, it can sometimes have the unintended (but positive) side effect of allowing some students who are capable and will do well to get there in the first place. This could benefit children like DD, or my friend's daughter, who is doing fantastically at uni, top of everything, but only got there because her A levels were teacher-assessed during the pandemic, for instance.

Well teacher assessments benefitted more or less everyone. I'm just saying the courses that are selective would not do this. Sometimes dc do take the "wrong" subjects and of course they should not be written off.

I work at Oxford University. Generally quite choosy. I recently asked our Fellow for History whether they would actually take a student who hadn't taken A-level History ( it is listed as recommended on the website, but not required). He said yes, in principle, provided they showed sufficient interest and aptitude, there was no reason why not. Historical knowledge acquired through A-level not particularly required! Of course, in practice he didn't remember it ever having happened, but he didn't remember anyone having applied without A-level history either so it hadnt been put to the test!

My dd knew someone apply for History at oxford without history A level , or GCSE , he was very confident.
He got an interview but no offer.

@Boodahh Which does indeed support the idea that it definitely isn't ruled out. Plenty of candidates with A-level history don't get interviews. And plenty more don't get offers after an interview. Being very confident is usually a misjudgement regardless of A level history!

@Boodahh and @irregularegular , I also know a few students to got places in uni without having taken the option in question. For many unis, it is classed as 'recommended' or 'useful'. But thinking about it, this is actuall a good thing as A levels are so restricted - 3 subjects and that's it.

Take DD. She can only do 3 and she has no idea what to do next. PPs and others recommends she does the stuff she's good at (which she probably will). If come Year 13 she has an epiphany and finally finds her thing (which she probably will), it would be good if she could change direction and do that, despite the 'wrong' A levels.

I am sure this situation is very common indeed. It has to be, with such narrow A level choice.

This is all about probability. The probability is that if you need to pass the HAT test for history and talk with enthusiasm about the subject at interview, if you get that far, then taking it at A level has obvious advantages. Obviously a dc doing an essay subject has a major advantage but the number taking history at a prestigious university without studying history and having the skills that entails, is always going to be vanishingly small.

Dc can have 3 A levels in all sorts of subjects but the elite universities have a huge choice. They give a clear indication which subjects are preferred at Cambridge. One ranked much lower will be needing dc. They won't have the same level of competition for some courses. MFL is usually easier to get into but history at the top flight universities is long odds against if you don't have history A level. Law is more forgiving. So it's a case of choosing wisely and not assuming the "recommended" subjects means loads don't have them. The admission stats will say otherwise. It's the same for FM. You can apply but at Imperial, would you get in? Possibly not,