Which A-level to drop - French or English Lit?

[stickygotstuck]

DD is applying to 6th form colleges. She wants to do 4 levels but two of the colleges say she can only take 3 (not happy about that but that's a different issue).

DD is not sure what she wants to do after college, so has chosen Maths to keep her options open.

Her choices are:

Music (non-negotiable)
Maths
French
English Lit

Which one should she drop? She can't decide between French and English Literature.

Are there any 6th form schools around? Here the schools allow four a levels and then there is always an option to drop one.

I’d drop English Lit. She may get some of the essay writing skills through French literature. It’s not difficult to explore English literature through personal study, which isn’t to say academic study isn’t a useful skill. But an MFL at A Level is a really useful skill which will open doors and if her brain is mathematically inclined, then why not stick with maths?

@Utr90 She cannot do engineering at any decent university with maths, French and music. Or any combo with just maths. However maths very much enhances law and business/management applications should she be interested.,

My DS is a similar case - hit crisis point during the GCSE years, possible ND, now doing A-Levels.

He is doing Music, and is enjoying it despite poor teaching. It is time-consuming because of the practice required for the instrument.

He started doing Maths, but found it a lot of work - a real step up in difficulty and intensity from GCSE Maths. He got an 8 in GCSE Maths having done very little revision, and realised that he would have to seriously up his game if he was going to do well at A-Level.

We did discover that there are loads of joint degrees in Music and Maths which seem cool.

He is having to work a lot harder for A-Levels than GCSEs, where he coasted. So I would suggest for the benefit of mental health it's good to have a mixture of more and less intense subjects. His other subjects are Music Technology and Geography - he finds both of them fairly easy.

So maybe it's worth considering the language your DD is fluent in - just to take the pressure off a bit?

@stickygotstuck I would read the Cambridge university guide to choosing A levels. The section on not knowing what course you might want is useful,

If you are looking at careers, obviously music is limited but has its place as an A level together with two from the Cambridge best prep list. This logic holds up for any university and many courses don't specify which A levels they want. Degrees like History and French will. Is she likely to choose an essay degree subject? In many ways this the music that prevents a deeper essay writing subject but she's going to have to compromise.

Has she done a careers test like Morrisby? This might help too. It was surprisingly accurate for DDs. It analyses strengths and likes as well as dislikes. Might be worth doing?

@clary 30 years ago and i studied Gide, Maupassant and Camus which was a far cry from asking for directions to the beach. It was a huge step up and I really panicked half way through my A levels. English Lit was hard but very manageable. I did well in both in the end but I sweated my way through French.

@Isabella40 unfortunately none. One oversubscribed (just got rejected) and one is not doing her favourite subject this year.

@pengwing , I know what you are saying and I've tried to talk her out of it but, long story short, for DD it's personal so she is very motivated to do well in Maths. Suggested Core Maths as a 4th. She says no point, why the extra work when it's not 'proper maths'

@TizerorFizz thanks for the Morrisby tip. Will try that. Have looked at the Cambridge guide. I know that English Lit, Maths and Languages are all facilitating subjects for RG unis.

@singletonatlarge , thanks for sharing DS'a experience. I hope he's doing well!
The fluent language is looking like a likely option.

I think the A level in MFL is great, challenging and worth taking for sure. Yes it's a big step up still.

But students usually study just one book and as I say, most schools pick something like Sac de Billes or a similar modern text. My point was that specs change. My A level French was nothing like DD's. I just think it's good to make it clear to students what it involves. I studied Moliere and Voltaire but those are rarely chosen today, so it's nit lots of classics.

Tbh the lit element is low key; much more important is the study of French culture, politics and history.

Err, it's a completely well established thing. There musicians who are mathmos and scientists. It's a combined degree subject.

My DC studied one book and a film for German A Level. He also had to complete and present a project and be asked questions on it by an external examiner. When I did A Level German we did do a project but the teacher marked it.

Meant to say before @SlightlyJaded I am really sorry your DD felt that and I can totally see how she would. I think tho it is not super common for a large proportion of an A level class in a school or college to be native speakers. Not disputing that this happened to your DD! But in my DCs' years the only native speakers in their years at secondary were DS2's Polish mate (who sat Polish GCSE for the lols) and a girl in DD's year who was a French native speaker. Neither did MFL A level. So if you were not actually in a class with native speakers, the pressure might be less. After all, you are not competing with other students, just trying to do your best. And for sure as a non-native that can be good enough for a top grade.

The girl in DD's year took GCSE French and the word for "potholes" appeared in the listening exam – students were asked "what was in the road". The phrase is nids-de-poule – literally chicken nests. DD heard "poule" and put there were chickens in the road (fair enough tbh). The French girl, when asked, said she knew what it meant, but she didn't have any idea how to say it in English so just shows there can be stumbling blocks for all.

A 7/8/9 at GCSE will show you are numerate. Arguably so will anything over a 4.

The issue with maths Alevel, OP, is that it is hard. And the jump from GCSE is huge even with the top grades. She’s likely to need to put a lot of work in and still might not end up with a high grade. That’s why I suggested you might need more than just keeping options open as a reason to take it. If she absolutely loves maths and is very good at it then it’s different.

I know you said she doesn’t have any idea but you listed a number of courses. Might be worth having a look at entry requirements for all of them and seeing if you’d shut any off completely by not doing maths A level. Core instead of EPQ might be enough if one of the colleges is offering that as an option.

Thank you everyone for all your contributions. Lots of info and food for thought!

I just find it so sad that A levels are not about learning but more of a results churning machine to feed unis. Especially with the uncertain future these offer anyway.

I'm showing DD your comments today after school and then she'll have to make a decision about Maths.

They are about learning though, they really are.

Despite a PP's comment below about not needing French bc everyone speaks English (depressing viewpoint IMHO), French A level is about so much. Yes ofc language, but also the history, culture, political and social issues in French-speaking countries.

You study a French book and a French film, you do an independent research project. It’s really good and certainly about extending learning and knowledge of the world. I’m sure the same is true (in a different way) for maths and English lit and music too.

It is useful to do what you are good at but it is more important to do what you love and are driven to do well in. I was persuaded out of English a-level because of ND, but via a roundabout route I ended up doing it as a major in a combined honours degree (the a-level was normally a requirement). I LOVED English at degree level. I will add I loved it because I loved analysing and unpicking texts.

If your DD deeply wants to do Maths then she should. It is useful to be aware it may be a challenge, but motivation is hugely important in all performance. She should 100% do Music, and if she loves French she should do that too. If she is already bilingual then that is going to be a huge boost to learning a third language, so she will have an advantage relative to monolingual people learning a second language.

All A-level choices can feel like things become closed off, nothing is ever truly closed because there is always a way around things. It might take more time, but as long as you are following what you think you want to do at the time, and don’t mind changing your mind, you’ll end up refining it down to what you really love.

It is sad, but it doesn't have to be like that. With the right teacher and subjects it will still be about learning, developing skills and exploring subjects that you love. Obviously don't choose A level subjects that you are noticably worse at, or that don't allow you to pursue the right University courses, but ultimately I think the best way to choose A levels is the subjects that you are genuinely interesed in. And incidentally, you will probably get better grades in those subjects too.

Don't drop maths. This is a great one and could be useful as proof of her ability for any finance related jobs and any admin related jobs.
Many jobs have elements of this for example social work.

If you are really good at Maths, then I think it is the least work of any A level. That was my own experience anyway. I don't think we have heard from OP about how strong her DD is at Maths.

It is the creative subjects like Art, Music and Drama which generate the highest volume of work I think. I'm still recovering from my daughter's A level Art, which was more work than English, German and Maths put together!!

Again, do Music if you love it, but don't think it is less work by any means.

@irregularegular Music is bloody hard and a lot of hard work! I know some people think the Arts subjects are a doddle. I've no idea why because they are anything but. DD actually swapped GCSE Art for History for a smaller workload. However, she now hates History and really regrets it. So that's her experience of last minute subject swaps. Which is not helping now!

She has chosen hard subjects, and she knows it.

I did say earlier that DD is aiming for an 8 in Maths, but I think a 7 is more realistic. The trouble is that, with her SEN, inconsistency is the name of the game. On the day, she could get anything from a 4 to 9, and none of them would be a real surprise. A lot of her self-esteem is riding on Maths, unfortunately.
We'd need to frame it in terms of "you'll find these other subjects much easier, less work and less overwhelming".

The most pressing issue is both colleges want an answer by tomorrow and DD is in the middle of her mocks with no bandwith whatsoever for big decisions. She made her decision before Christmas and all these Big Issues were sorted as far as she and we were concerned!

Ah sorry @stickygotstuck I missed the bit about the 8/7 in Maths. I did try to look back, but quickly!

Of course you know your DD infinitely better, but if her self esteem is riding on Maths, is is better to frame it in terms of how passionate (and brilliant) she is about the other subjects, rather than maths being too hard, too much work, too overwhelming.

@irregularegular , one of DD's talents is cutting through any well-meaning but ultimately insincere comments you throw at her. "You'll do brilliantly at French" will be heard as "Stop patronising me, you mean I am crap at Maths" !

@stickygotstuck oh dear - though it doesn't need to be insincere if you do think she'd do really well at French! (maybe not "brilliantly"). In any case, I still think a fundamental interest is the key...

@stickygotstuck ,

Although I love Maths, I really wouldn’t recommend a Maths A level to anyone who can’t get an 8 comfortably.

The reality is that natural mathematicians cruise a 9 without much work and the 9s at GCSE will map to Bs to A*s at A level. I suspect 7s map mainly to Ds to Bs (the data is available if you google it).

I would only recommend A level maths to those students who both found it interesting and had some natural aptitude.

Maths is super useful but a C grade at A level doesn’t really show you know much Maths.

@Newbutoldfather , thank you.

You see, this is where the A level edifice falls down. What's the point of only learning the stuff you are good at? Surely, you can learn those things by yourself with some good books if you want to. As I said, I come from a very different education system and this really grates.

DD could take an A level in the language she is fluent in. When I suggested that, she said 'what would be the point?'. And the thing is, I agree wholeheartedly.

Aside from that, I disagree that a grade C in Maths doesn't show you don't know Maths. A grade A* in, say, History definitely doesn't, or a U in Maths. A C in Maths means that on the day you had the exam, you recalled a decent amount of facts but not all.

DD finds Maths interesting and she has an ability for It.

It is very difficult to convey what education is like for able but SEN students. DD is more than capable of a 9 in French. She is by far the best student in the top set (according to her teacher). But she may get a 7 or even a 6 on the day. So her target is a 7.

In any case, the decision is hers to make.

I think @clary has said all the sensible thing already about A-level French. It's really not the case that non-native speakers can't get high grades, though people often say this on mumsnet.

As an off-topic aside, I did French A level 25ish years ago and at that point we didn't have to do literature with my exam board (it was an option my school chose not to pursue) but they had loads of books lying around from when they had done it, and they were pretty much the same ones they do now, like Sac de billes etc. So I think maybe @Hillsmakeyoustrong was just unlucky, or had higher expectations of herself than she needed to have. L'Etranger is popular too as teenagers like the existentialist angst, it's short, and the language is simple (they are not expecting deep literary or philosophical insights).

Anyway, what I'm really here to say is that I can see that @stickygotstuck's DD probably just wants to have this settled, but if she's still choosing between colleges as well as subjects, you could ask about the timetable. Back in the day I had a choice between school sixth form, and a really big college. At that college, they had enough students for two French classes and at least two different timetabled slots for maths, possibly more. If that's the case for any of the colleges you're looking at, then she absolutely could do the taster sessions and then pick/change because she won't end up with a combination that can't be timetabled. In a smaller institution they might timetable based on student choices and be less able to offer all combinations.