Which A-level to drop - French or English Lit?

[stickygotstuck]

DD is applying to 6th form colleges. She wants to do 4 levels but two of the colleges say she can only take 3 (not happy about that but that's a different issue).

DD is not sure what she wants to do after college, so has chosen Maths to keep her options open.

Her choices are:

Music (non-negotiable)
Maths
French
English Lit

Which one should she drop? She can't decide between French and English Literature.

Yea yes yes.

Grades matter hugely for universities and a language she is fluent in is a massive advantage.

I think they are 4 weirdly disparate a levels. I would say a language proficiency qualification is worth a lot more than a language A level

Has she looked at the syllabi to see which she prefers out of English Literature and French.?

My dd did French A level, having found French easy up to that point, but hated it . There were a lot who could speak French v well in the class (possibly had a French parent etc) so that was a factor. So on that basis I'd say drop French.

I do think Maths A level is useful and shows that you are numerate which is useful for jobs down the line.

Ah @stickygotstuck missed your update there.

The reason for the native speaker impact on top grades is that yes, the grades are done on a bell curve and only x% will get an A-star. It in theory is more of an issue with German as a lot fewer students take it than French. Tho the grade boundaries for French are a lot higher than they are for German (DD's C in French would have been a B in German in her year) for some reason. Acc AQA it is bc the German exam is harder hmmmmm

Really tho I would encourage French A level, or rather not discourage it for that reason (as per my previous post). It's a great A level with a lot of very interesting topics.

I think it's a good idea to look at the texts offered at college for Eng lit actually and see if they are of interest. Also the topics for French (tho they are fixed, not of the school's choosing).

Interestign about the degree subjects that would be facilitated by maths A level - they are quite niche tho @stickygotstuck - are they of interest to your DD? What are her PGs for maths and French GCSE?

Is she bilingual in German btw??

Music and Maths go together well. It was a degree combination you could take when I was a sixth former. That was a long time ago but I should imagine that now - as then - many musicians are good at Maths.

Re MFL - if you are bilingual then it will help with the A Level. However, unis do tend to think a soft option has been chosen if the person is taking an MFL in a language they are fluent in. At my DCs sixth form, an MFL was often a fourth A Level for those who were bilingual and/or considering studying or working abroad at some point.

English Lit - a good solid A Level if you enjoy the set texts and the workload. DC enjoyed it a lot more than History which had far too much content and erratic teaching. NB At a top UK state sixth form they had such a high staff turnover in History that it was very stressful.

I think maths A level shows a degree of intelligence that perhaps the others dont

English Literature.

Think of the value and benefit of being able to speak another language to a higher standard than most.

No they aren't and a 'language proficiency qualification' serves a completely different purpose to an A Level in an MFL where the actual language is only part of what's studied.

So in terms of maths keeping options open.

There are quite a few degrees where maths is useful. They divide into the degrees where working with data (statistics) is useful and where pure maths (for want to a better word) is useful,

So for example in geography or psychology or many degrees the working with data type of maths is very useful. You need to be able to say, for example, how many people live in the slums of Nigeria compared to the country etc. if you do an experiment in psychology then you need to compare the experimental group to the other group.

Maths a level contains some but not very much of this type of maths.

What it does contain a lot of is the algebra and geometry needed to work with the mathematical models you need in chemistry, physics and biology.

That's why it usually "goes with" those a levels and in fact many schools won't let you do physics a level without maths because the physics a level applies the maths that is taught in the maths a level.

So maths a level is very useful and in fact pretty much required if you want to do sciences.

But it doesn't offer much to help those who will be doing degrees where the working with data but is the useful bit.

(Some other countries split it in two at this age and you can choose either the working with data bit or the pure bit)

Erm, no way.

What is she on target for for her Maths GCSE OP ? That would have an impact for me as on the whole it has higher requirements to go onto a level than other subjects ( round here anyway ) and is a big step up ( apparently) .

My DS was undecided and I got him to score all 10 current subjects out of ten as to how good at it he was and again on how much he enjoyed them . Try that and see if she numbers anything differently to expected . I know it sounds a bit odd but it worked for him ( I also ask him to score his day out of 10 too to get him to talk 🤷🏻‍♀️)

No I am glad to say that that is not the case.

I love that @waitingquietly

<goes off to score own day>

@stickygotstuck I think you need to get to grips with how things are marked in the UK to understand. The amount of A's are decided way before the exams are sat. This is the same with GCSEs. When you see headlines in the news saying we need to improve % of maths passes, it is just lazy journalism. The reality is, the % of kids that can pass is decided way before the exams. For example if you Google GCSE maths grade boundaries, you will see how many marks you needed in various years to pass. This fluctuates every year and is also dependent on exam board.
If for example this year lots of kids do well on the AQA maths papers, AQA will just raise the grade boundaries, so more marks will be needed to get a pass. So every year, many kids sit a test they already know they won't be passing. Obviously in in an MFL subject if you're a native speaker this helps, but only so much. But this is why popular subjects, and subjects that attract traditionally very clever kids, usually have much higher grade boundaries, because only so many As can be given out. Maths A Level has crazy high grade boundaries, as does French and English.

It is a crazy system that doesn't really exist in many other places.

As for core maths, no, it won't count much for uni applications but neither does a 4th A Level. Core maths is very useful though, look up past papers. It is useful for some of the courses you've listed she might be interested in as it keeps up maths skills, pushes them slightly beyond GCSEs but not at the intensity of a full maths A Level.
Your DD doesn't need to rely on taster lessons. She needs to look at the subjects she's considering, check what exam board that college uses, and then look up past papers and the subject specifications. Many colleges, especially 6th forms will have a short summary of what the course entails and what exam board and spec they use. Your experience studying A Level English Lit at one college can be very very different to studying it at a different college. Same with subjects like psychology where the teacher has a degree of choice in terms of what units they choose.
But doing this will give you a good indicator of what she will be learning. She could also buy the textbook on Amazon for that A Level subject and the exam board, flick through it and return it. Again, make sure it's the right exam board as the units and what she will learn will differ, even if it's the same subject. There's tons of YouTube videos as well. All of that will be a much much better help than a taster lesson.

Is she bilingual in another language then and is there an option for studying in your other country without all this U.K. uni pressure to do the “right” subjects? Because from what you say her mental health and doing the subjects she actually wants to do and could do well in may be the priority?

It shows that the person is numerate/logical/thinks in a particular way.
If these are traits you value over others, then you might consider them more intelligent. It doesn't, for example, show that you can summarise information, draw conclusions or write well. Which are also signs of intelligence.

Oh what a lovely dilemma! I love her subject choices. Shame she can't start all 4 as that would have been ideal.
Personally, I think that Maths, Music and English is an incredibly strong combination. I'm thinking not about university and future potential degree options but in terms of what an employer might think about her skill set in years to come. Rounded, logical, empathetic, brave, disciplined, curious... it can all be read into that A-Level subject combination in my opinion.
(I'm a non-native MFL grad, by the way, so not at all anti-languages.)

I'm not sure that's correct, it's a well known fact that a lot of kids who are good at maths really struggle with the analytical skills needed in subjects like English. It is very impressive when a child is able to get a high grade in both at A Level though.

If she does 3 A levels, and doesn't find it too hard going, then an EPQ can be very useful

The reason for the native speaker impact on top grades is that yes, the grades are done on a bell curve and only x% will get an A-star.

Actually, this isn't really true. There is a detailed description in the TES here of how grade boundaries are decided. It is clear that there isn't a quota and instead the aim is to ensure that standards are maintained from year to year. Moreover, the proportion of A-star varies hugely from subject to subject (with German actually being the highest of the main subjects I think). Presumably reflecting the higher standard of students who self select to take A level German compared to other subjects.

I know there is a perception that it is harder to get high grades in modern languages but I am not sure if there is any proper non-anecdotal evidence of this eg comparing grades that the same students get across different subjects for large numbers of students.

(anecdotally my daughter got an A in German and A* in her other subjects, despite going on to Oxford to study German. However, she puts that down to the fact that it was Covid so grades were teacher assessed and she actually found German easier than her other subjects and had been coasting, planning a last minute push...she was quite annoyed! )

Ooops forgot my links: Grade boundaries: what are they and how do they work? | Tes
Exam results statistics A-level - June 2024

Re A* at A Level MFL - last yr when my DC did German A Level one of the papers was really hard. The cohort was 20 students and there were no A stars. It had never happened to the teacher before and she is an excellent teacher.

@irregularegular yes, and for the standards to be maintained year on year there is a quota. Whether they use that word or not makes no difference. The only way grade boundaries go up is if lots of kids do really well on the paper. The only way they go down is if lots of kids do badly on the paper.
For national exams, most countries use 1 exam board, same exam for everyone and pass mark is the same across the board. So technically it's possible for everyone to pass, if they meet the pass mark. That's not possible in England. So whether you call it a quota or not, it doesn't really change what it is, and it is very unique to England, most countries do not have this system and somehow manage to keep their standards year on year.

@clary I take your point about having to understand more nuanced aspects of a MFL but DD said that she felt at a very clear disadvantage once they got to A Level. She did well at GCSE (8) but the amount of vocab she needed in in order to start critiquing Spanish novels and politics was overwhelming and she spent a lot of time having to 'learn new language' that everybody else in her class had 'by default'.

Yes - you have to apply it, but she definitely found it tougher, and felt she had a much heavier workload as a non native speaker.

Even if that is true, it remains the case that there isn't the same "quota" for each subject. Modern languages have a higher proportion of A-star* *grades than most other subjects. So you can't easily argue from the idea that a fixed-ish proportion of candidates get A-star to the conclusion that it is harder to get an A-star in languages.

@clary , @Foxesandsquirrels and @irregularegular , thank you for the explanation of how the grades are allocated. I'm sorry to say the system is as bonkers and farcical as I thought. But that's what DD is stuck with, so deep breaths!

Thanks for the tip about looking at exam boards and past papers too, Foxes.

clary and @Araminta1003 yes, DD is bilingual in a different European language. In fact, she could do that instead of French, but she wouldn't be learning as much that's 'new' and she does love French. Then again, it may make life easier for her (and an easier life is something she really, really could do with).
A gap year there after A levels is a possibility but she's not ready now.

@Octavia64 , thanks very much for the breakdown of the different types of Maths, that's very useful. I am in fact wondering if DD should actually do a science instead. Physics maybe? She did wonder this herself a few days ago. But is Physics without Maths any good?

@1SillySossij , I don't think it's a particularly niche combination?
As for Maths demonstrating more intelligence, from my own knowledge of people I'd say definitely not! 😁

@waitingquietly , that's a great idea, thanks! Will try as soon as her head is clear of mocks revision this week.

@notafraidofthebigbadwolf , thank you. That's DD almost to a T, that made a bit tearful, actually. But that's a great point (also a linguist here).

@Papagei , I know it's counter-intutive, but a lot off DD's self esteem is tied to academics. Sadly, she's gone from doing really well at everything to barely able to cope. If she can do well in the stuff she chooses now that should help her recover her view of herself enormously. Of course, we are also preparing for things going the other way. Not a moment of boredom in this house 😶.