Private and state school pupils’ GCSE results are now the same, study finds

[IrisOlympia]

Interesting new study - thoughts?

www.theguardian.com/education/2024/nov/21/private-and-state-school-pupils-gcse-results-are-now-the-same-study-finds

It's out of date already.

It was based upon results from Summer 2017.

There have been quite a few things happening to schools since then. And the entire world.

From what I see in my town this is simply not true. You can go to each school website and see their GCSE and A'Level results and they are far below both private/independent schools here. I'm not sure how they can come to the conclusion but I'd love to see the national figures when the government finally release them.

The same after they've adjusted them for all sorts (e.g. parental income) - but who is actually going to do that?

Private schools get better results- end of.

The point is family background / socioeconomic status is a big driver of results. Its not comparing school to school.

There are some excellent state schools, along with some very mediocre private schools. And vice versa. This doesn’t surprise me at all. It will all depend on the school itself, along with the standard of teaching, that will determine how well students perform in their GCSEs.

No, they don’t.

They may have in 2017 in the core subjects of Maths, English and Science but that’s because of the focus on those subjects and not on creative ones.

You may think that’s what most important - I can understand that pint of view. But part of why (some) parents send their children to independent schools is for a wider education including arts subjects, sports, clubs and so on as well as calmer classrooms with fewer students in each one.

I thought that the mother’s educational background was the determining factor as to whether a child did well

They’re nowhere near the same in our area.

Then the adjustment for 'socio-economic factors must be simply huge.

My ds attends a small non-selective rural independent. Families are a mix of army, local professional and a small international contingent.

Every year they get 100% of pupils though GCSE English and Maths. The state school at which my ds was allocated a place got 59% through maths and 68% through English last year.

How is that the same?

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2024/nov/private-schools-lose-gcse-results-edge-after-socioeconomic-adjusting

this is a better write up of the report and acknowledges some of the more subtle considerations.

I’m not surprised. Really, it’s shocking that private schools don’t get better results.

What we’re really looking at here is the most affluent pupils who chose state vs private.

state schools cannot spend public money on the arts like private schools do. Private school parents expect all the extras in the arts - they’re the customer. It’s a totally different set up.

The point is that it's so outdated, it's pointless busy work.

Their methodology wasn't necessarily inherently flawed, but the existence of time means that the assertion that results are now the same is utter bollocks. It also doesn't measure progress, as that's not monitored in a comparable manner in independent.

They were consistent attainment results at the time those date points were recorded. However, seeing as the DfE completely buggered up the data collection for this year, there were two years with no comparable data and political decisions have affected the examinations/syllabuses/testing so assessments at end of phase are very, very different from those in 2017, it's pointless and will be misused forevermore.

Well that’s not an even playing field is it? The ‘you have to take everyone’ in state schools means that if 2 kids in a class has special needs, then you’re down at 66% in a class of 30. Not rocket science, but superficially compelling.

I think it shows how parents involvement and student motivation are the most important factors in academic achievement. An unmotivated, low ability child will not ace GCSEs in a private school, however much money parents throw at them. A motivated child with involved parents will do well however crap the school. I went to bog standard comp where the 'headline' was about 45% A to C. I got all As and A*s.

@IrisOlympia this looks at exams taken 8 years ago, long before Covid, which we know had a huge effect on children, with private schools doing a lot more during that time than their state counterparts. The gap has now become wider.

The analysis tried to strip out socioeconomic advantages. Across the board, private schools out perform. The research says “It has long been assumed that the private sector outperforms the state sector at GCSE level and raw data indicates just that”. It also states that private schools outperform state in creative arts, even after adjusting for socio economic background.

ETA the article also doesn’t mention other benefits of private education. Things like public speaking/performances and confidence building are more commonplace in private schools. A decent education is about so much more than the GCSE grade in maths and English.

But we have SEN pupils in our school too. They joined because they couldn't cope with the state school.

So I'm not sure how that makes a difference.

You lack imagination.

Would you expect a child with Downs Syndrome to pass? What about a child with PTSD who has no English? Or what about a child that has huge meltdowns because they can’t cope? All of these children and more are in State Classes. Your school will filter out, but it doesn’t make your teachers ‘better’.

That said my point is more that just one child has a huge impact on data, you seemed shocked at c60%. That’s just 2 kids in many schools

It really varies by school - at DD's comprehensive, 90% got 4 or more in both English and maths last year. 80% got 5+ at both English and maths. Over half the maths grades were 7-9. I can name (several) independent schools that would beat that, but none of them have a comprehensive intake, indeed I would be intrigued to see the figures for DD's school once SEN and social factors were included.

Please explain those figures to me.

How do you go from 28/30 to 66%?

30 - 2 (28) without special needs.
28/30 is about 93%.
10 in a class of 30 with special needs means about 66% without.
2/3 is about 66%.

“Once results are adjusted for socioeconomic background” - put the private school results down in an arbitrary way to back up a headline. Sounds like nonsense data.

As we know there are many things that affect attainment. We know that If you looked at the raw data the green leafy mc areas will have good/outstanding state schools that achieve good results.

Now is the time then to give those schools in economically deprived areas more money (than the current premium they get) and/or start spreading admissions so that there is some levelling up. MC parents pay a premium for living in areas with outstanding schools and they then donate money to these schools to give their children an advantage. The state system needs adjustments to ensure that those with parents who can't/won't support them get extra help at school with better facilities etc.

The gap is not state to private it's within state.

I dont think its very controversial finding to be honest. It seems family background/socio economic status has always driven results to a great extent.

It also backs up the idea that people chose private, not for the grades, but to do a broader curriculumn and access arts.

I imagine that a lot of the students whose parents are richer and attend state school have private tutors. That probably skews the data

It’s been known for years and years that basic intelligence is the biggest factor in educational attainment. The influence that any school has is very minimal after that.

It’s not very PC and we don’t like to talk about IQ tests these days but all schools now do a baseline intelligence test for entrants in Y7 and base exam predictions on that.

Selective private schools are selecting for intelligence. The most prestigious schools cream off the most intelligent children. This is frequently discussed on private school threads here - the score you will need to get into various schools.

If you’re talking about other advantages outwith of attainment in standardised testing then of course private schooling gives that. This article was only about educational outcomes, not life outcomes.

The fact that there has never been any market for a basic private school focused only on education shows that parents know this. Nobody wants to pay for GCSEs. They want to pay for wide ranging social advantage in the form of sports, arts and social connections.

Adjusted? How was this done? What was the parameters and criteria, so vague that it seems like US polling surveys for the past election. Need to know how they adjust the data to start reviewing if this does stand up to scrutiny.