Private and state school pupils’ GCSE results are now the same, study finds

[IrisOlympia]

Interesting new study - thoughts?

www.theguardian.com/education/2024/nov/21/private-and-state-school-pupils-gcse-results-are-now-the-same-study-finds

https://www.independentschoolparent.com/promotion/private-tutoring-superprof/

The vast majority of wealthy people (whatever some might insist on mumsnet) will only choose state eduction if the state school their children can access is one of the ones that is doing well. They will then top up with extra help as needed.

I know wealthy is subjective but prices are particularly prohibitive now when you factor in house prices, interest rates and stagnant wages. If you servicing a mortgage on a 1m house and having to find 50k a year for 2 dc that is quite a sacrifice.

Yes, so if you are middle class you tend to get better results regardless of school. The better results reflect the class intake.

Yes noted that some private schools do gcse. It’s really the igcse I consider gives an unfair advantage as being easier (eg coursework). I dug out some stats about English language a while back. Comparing a state grammar doing gcse with a non selective private school doing igcse the latter had significantly higher proportion of top grades. No doubt some
posters will say that is because the private school has/had better teaching but I don’t really think that is the only factor at play there. In my view the igcse is easier and I say that from the point of view of having had a child study each of them.

This was the same ‘data’ when I was at school in 2000’s, and I went to a private secondary school. What you don’t see from pure stats is literally everything else. How happy are the students? What backgrounds are they coming from? Etc etc. many people send their children to private schools for non-academic reasons too.

So on this basis, widening access/participation arrangements should not be based on school attended but just on personal circumstances? Universities currently often compare pupils to typical attainment at their school, this report would suggest that is irrelevant?

@TrumptonsFireEngine yes it should be based on parental income (non fudged/mired by tax mitigation schemes).
still the paper really isn't shedding light on anything new or surprising.

Does anyone know what the 2024 data is actually goi g to be released?

It's not straight "like for like" though. Private schools/grammar pupils tend to do more GCSEs, and they tend to do subjects that comps often don't such as separate sciences, further maths, latin, broader range of modern languages, etc. It can be like comparing apples and oranges.

It isn’t and that’s from the point of view of a teacher who has taught both of them.

Having been October, later in October, four days later in October, first week in November, second week of November, before Christmas and now definitely in January - God only knows.

Do any private non sen schools have upwards of 10% asd children? 1 who moved to sen school end of y1 the other start of y7.
The secondary has almost 1/30 children who got in via ehcp even in this aftermath of covid kack of diagnoses.
Harc to believe they bothered to publish this at all given how old the source data is. Kids starting school in 2016 are now y8!

I actually think its very concerning anyway because it actually means the rich who choose not to send to private kids will be ok
Probably as
Grammar
Degree educated oarents
Wealthy areas with effectively selection by postcode..
AND tutoring or extra curriculars etc

One reason state schools may not do as badky as you think is the large numbers of kids so competition being able to have lots of sets (if they bother setting)
So for maths say 8 classes so say 6 classes working towards the higher papers.
But if 1/3 kids fail maths and english overall it will be higher in state even than that as few in private fail.
There are kids at least 1/30 who didnt even sit SATs let aoone fail so basically cant read or do maths above level of 7yo at 11.

At secondary there are kids in and out of isolation i doubt that happens now in private.Not only do those kids disrupt the initial lesson but also then are behind too.

They're contextually the same. That's the new buzzword for policymakers who don't want to address actual failings in our education system. They simply adjust the results to equalise outcomes.

Now do a controlled experiment, and send a randomly selected group of state school pupils to an independent school, and compare their outcomes to the control group. Does anyone (excluding government sponsored fantacists) believe the outcomes would be the same?

No, most do a mix of GCSE + iGCSE. The difference is that iGCSE is recognised internationally.

I think it would be a much fairer system if they all did one exam board wherever they are. Then it would be standardised and you can be comparing apples with apples not apples with pears. Either have coursework or don’t, but it seems unfair that private schools can use coursework exam boards when state cannot. And the grades should be the same too- not letters for some and numbers for others. An Astar is not as hard to get as a 9 yet counts for the same for some uni applications…

No, the difference is iGCSEs are sat internationally - because they didn’t have coursework that requires a verified marker. That is the same reason why private candidates, online candidates, and those homeschooled sit iGCSEs.

IGCSE stands for International General Certificate of Secondary Education which is recognised as the international equivalent of the GCSE. IGCSE offers the same level of education like the traditional GCSE, but in an international or non UK-centric curriculum and context.
In reality, the difference between GCSEs and IGCSEsare so minor, that either option should be perceived as ‘better’ or ‘worse’ than the other one.

You guys cannot see it from only your perspective of where you live. There are grammar counties, and boroughs like the one where I live where state schools are way above the average and in top 100.

What is objective is the national average and not our local perspective

You may be right but I think its probably school/area specific.

So the grammar school with top results are only better than other state schools due to parents?

Not true.

My ds' independent school does GCSEs, a mix of Edexcel and AQA. Not an iGCSE in sight.

They get better results than other state schools due to having a selective intake.

But equivalent children do as well at both?

I'm extremely sceptical.

Even ignoring the actual school kids go to, I'm sure richer kids do better than poorer kids in general regardless of school.

And far fewer poor kids go to private school.

I'm very fortunate that my DC attend/ed excellent non-selective state schools. Ones where capable children who are prepared to put the work in, can readily achieve grades equivalent to those in private. And that's despite the local private requiring pupils to pass an entrance exam. So yes, state schools can and do beat private ones.

Depressingly, I strongly suspect that the earning power of the two groups diverges several years on though.