Private and state school pupils’ GCSE results are now the same, study finds

[IrisOlympia]

Interesting new study - thoughts?

www.theguardian.com/education/2024/nov/21/private-and-state-school-pupils-gcse-results-are-now-the-same-study-finds

Even ignoring the actual school kids go to, I'm sure richer kids do better than poorer kids in general regardless of school.

But isn’t that the point of the study? That the only reason why private school children do better is because their parents are richer?

@TrumptonsFireEngine since it's the parents that facilitate the entire application to grammar schools in that way, yes, grammar schools do better due to the parents.

But isn’t that all rather fatalistic when it comes to the schools themselves? And how can you justify VAT on private schools if their pupils do no better than the schools you intend to spend the VAT income on?

Kind of makes the study useless though doesn't it? What's it for?

If richer kids do better and a higher proportion of rich kids go to private, I'd send my to private if I could afford so that they do better.

It's like study into the affects of being overweight than then says adjusted for type 2 diabetes, cholesterol, heart disease and hypertension outcomes of the two groups were the same. It's not useful since all those things you adjusted for are way more prevalent in one group than another and make the difference.

and digging down at the data will probably reveal that those that are "richer" also are more educated so back to a much older study that found that children who's mothers had university degrees did better than those that didn't.

i believe one of the differences is the type of sen children found in mainstream vs grammar and private. the sen children i've seen at my grand daughters private have challenges that don't regularly disrupt class.
and if the cost of private diagnosis (and starting medication) for adhd is prohibitive to many again those with more money will be able to afford the private diagnosis, medical treatment and access to various school styles (more pe).

More PE is a really good example. DD has double games 3 times a week + PE 3 times a week so every day they have minimum of 1 hour's physical activity plus a range of mandatory activities eg chess/logic/crosswords etc played individually/pairs.

Private school parents (including on this thread) are generally at pains to say that they have chosen the school for multiple reasons, of which results is just one.

But that doesn’t address the question of is it right to ask those parents to pay more towards schools whose academic results are the same as those at the private schools they are paying a small fortune for?

Well if School A provides good results
and
School B provides good results, great music, great sport,smaller classes, better facilities, amazing pastoral care, less bullying, a less disruptive environment, better SEN provision, fewer gaps in teaching, a building that is not falling down

then I'd argue School B provides more value.
If you think School B is not providing more value, you are free to choose School A.

I think it's wildly naive to assume there's less bullying in the private sector. Some of the nastiest bullies I ever met were at private school. I guess maybe because they had plummy accents and their daddy was famous it seemed more acceptable?

My parents switched me in the end (because they realised the results were no different at the state schools near us) and I was so much happier. No bullying, lovely group of friends

I have children in independent schools. This result isn’t that surprising is it? There are bright children in both sectors and excellent teachers in both sectors.

The stat that I find really cuts through is offer rates at Oxford University (and btw well done them for being so open with their admissions data). I ask people what they think the offer rate is for three groups of students. Those at independent schools, those at non-selective state schools, and those eligible for Free School Meals. Almost without exception people tend to rank independent schools over state schools, and both independent and state well above FSM students. In fact, the answer is that offer rates are all broadly the same at around 20%. Oxford admissions tutors are very smart people who are well trained in identifying those students who will thrive at Oxford. Their conclusion? On average the type of school you go in and of itself to has no bearing on your current and future educational attainment.

Oxford use contextual applications, eg. look at results against those typically obtained by that school. So if the results are due to parents not school then this would suggest an unfair advantage to children of wealthy parents in lower performing schools.

No that's not right. Oxford compare the student to applicants from similar schools. Not compared to other students at the applicants school (which would be senseless).

“1. Information about your school
This helps us to understand the whole school context in which you have achieved your grades. To do this, we access the following information from the Department for Education in England or, where available, equivalent data from Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales:

• The performance of your school or college at GCSE.
• Your attainment at GCSE compared to GCSE attainment at your school or college.
• The performance of your school or college at A-level or equivalent level.
• The percentage of students eligible for free school meals at your school or college at GCSE or equivalent level.”

“4. Free School Meals (FSM) eligibility
If you are flagged as FSM eligible, you will automatically be identified as being within the most disadvantaged group of applicants. This means that you will be strongly recommended to be shortlisted for interview, provided that evidence suggests you are likely to achieve the conditional offer for your course, and that you perform to a suitable standard in any required admissions test.”

https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/decisions/contextual-data

That is badly worded and should be changed. I'll find an admissions manual section and paste the relevant section in.

I was quoting some of the reasons that people say they prefer private schools, not saying they are my reasons (my DC went to state schools).

I totally agree with you about the bullying. IME it's school specific, not sector specific.

Are you suggesting Oxford are placing misleading admissions information on their website?

As promised...

I think this is widely known isn't it?
Also wealthy families in "pockets" in otherwise deprived areas will get contextual offers that aren't warranted. Contextual offers are applied at a broad level, and will get it wrong sometimes (and also miss children who might warrant one, but hopefully the sixth form reference might try to support this).

However, I suspect the number of wealthy parents who send their children to poorly performing schools is pretty small. At least none of the parents wanting to move their children to sixth form after GCSEs at private school hoping to game the system seem to target these schools.

So they are comparing Your attainment at GCSE compared to GCSE attainment at your school or college.

No.Thats not right. The steps are listed in the picture I posted. In short you are compared against all other applicants to Oxford who were educated in a school with a similar level of GCSE attainment as measured by the share of 7-9 grades.

Well yes, it is widely known. The point is the study this thread is based on suggest school should not be used as a contextual marker because it is parents not school that counts.

The other criteria often used is areas of deprivation - which is principally a marker of housing density not individual deprivation; deprivation in rural areas is ignored as the unit area is larger and covers a more mixed demographic. Again another area where parent/family economic circumstances would better reflect deprivation.

Yes, your application is assessed based on your school’s performance. So coming back to the suggestion to;

Those at independent schools, those at non-selective state schools, and those eligible for Free School Meals. Almost without exception people tend to rank independent schools over state schools, and both independent and state well above FSM students. In fact, the answer is that offer rates are all broadly the same at around 20%

That is not because “Private and state school pupils’ GCSE results are now the same” but because Oxford treats them differently based on GCSE results.**