Private and state school pupils’ GCSE results are now the same, study finds

[IrisOlympia]

Interesting new study - thoughts?

www.theguardian.com/education/2024/nov/21/private-and-state-school-pupils-gcse-results-are-now-the-same-study-finds

It’s area dependent. In our area, the lower performing private schools are roughly on a par with the very best state school and nearest grammar. The highest achieving private schools achieve far higher exam grades than the best state school or nearest selective grammar..

It is and my chikdren do, but that doesn't necessarily translate into higher grades at gcse and a level in those types of subjects as the purpose of the clubs is different than teaching exam content. Your children can still get rich experiences but it is well know that state school have de-prioritised certain subjects as they aren't measured in Sats or progress 8 (or the weighting in progress 8 is away from them)

I think this study is really useful for showing how state schools should now start to prioritise the broader curriculum again.

I dont think its other finding, about socio economic status is news.

Also what is happening in reality if you have a child from an equally rich family in a state school?

1. The state school is well run and not in crisis. If it was the wealthy parents would remove their child or simply not have sent them in the first place. They would send them to a private school
2. The child is coping well over all with the school and is studying well and getting into higher sets. If they were being bullied or distracted by poor behaviour or were being stressed out by rigid behaviour policies and couldn't cope then their parents would send them to a private school.
3. If there is a missing maths or physics teacher or their child is struggling in a couple of subjects then they will hire in help.

These stats make no sense because the comparison doesn't hold. Wealthy people have choices. The vast majority of wealthy people (whatever some might insist on mumsnet) will only choose state eduction if the state school their children can access is one of the ones that is doing well. They will then top up with extra help as needed.

No wrong as someone has pointed out its area dependant. Our state school has more extra curricular, sport and clubs than the three local private schools and offers broader GCSE’s and a levels with only a three percentage difference in achievement. There isn’t a blanket private is better and it’s a misnomer to think they are.

It's a moot point though surely? I presume they add grammar schools into this which skews the results. Not looking at tutoring and SEN will skew figures too. The private schools actually learn different subjects to the grammars who do different subjects to the comps...it is surely impossible to compare. A lot of very wealthy people move to be closer to good grammars too.

Unless they are keeping it quiet I don't think so. I was at a party recently with about 9 or 10 parents from DS's school and the conversation turned to tutoring and every parent said they didn't do it and would be pretty pissed off if it was needed on top of fees. Small sample I agree
The schools line on it is if you feel your child needs tutoring speak to us first to see if we can put things in place at school.

I havent for a second suggest "privte is better'. What an odd conclusion. I've suggested that private schools aren't held accountable to progress 8 in the same way, so they don't have to align resources in a way that maximises progress 8.

These statistics are at a population level. I'm not wrong that across state schools as a whole group, non core subjects have been de-prioritused. You might go to an oulier school and that's great. But it's a bit 'I'm alright jack' isn't it.

The way sats and progress 8 are measured means schools are held more accountable for core.

There are a lot of people incredibly worried about the impact this has had on arts provision across the country. Lots of articles in school specifc press about this issue.

But surely the goal of everything isn't just to get better grades in them at school? That's a very narrow view of life.

We can have accomplishments and hobbies that are never examined and they can still bring huge value to our lives. Whether pure pleasure or self development or the bedrock of a future professional career in that area.

Absolutley. A full life is incredibly important. People should do lots of things that are for joy.

But the study didn't measure that. It measured that pupils at private, when compared with like for like students in state, were doing slightly better in exams the arts and I was just suggesting that doing a drama club outside school gives the same rich experience, but that doesn't necessarily translate to grades if someone chose that subject as it has a different purpose.

I'd love to live in a world where grades didn't matter, but universities do look at them and if someine want to study music, drama, art, textikes its a shame for them if their grades are lower than they could have been and a club doesn't necessarily sort it out

Thanks for the passive aggrsssive and defensive reply. I’m afraid I felt the same holier than thou in your post hence my response. So we agree to disagree and move on.

It's perfectly possible to do grades and study outside of school.

I know plenty talented actors and musicians (due to my career) who don't have a GCSE or A level in their chosen art

How are you down to 66% if just 2 pupils have SEN? 2 out of a class average of 30 is 6.66%, so down to 93% potential passes, not 66%.

In fact it's bizarrely reductive to assume unless you study something at GCSE /university then you can't make a career of it @Frowningprovidence

Also private schools do igcse not gcse. The former used to be a bit harder than the old gcse but since 2019 I understand that the igcse is considerably “easier”. I have no particular axe to grind as I have had different kids sit both kinds. However it is annoying that universities don’t seem to distinguish between the two - eg medicine- need to get a 6. No doubt that this is easier in IGCSE.

I didn't say anything about careers.

I said that the study measured success at gcse, which was marginally better at private and that a grade was useful for someone who wanted to go to university.

And that whilst clubs were brilliant for life, experience, joy and indeed careers. They don't equate to gcse grades which is what tge study measure. Because they have a different purpose. That purpose might be better than a gcse. I didn't give it a value.

I just think it would be great if state schools across the country coukd prioritise the arts a bit more and fund them better so a wider range of pupils get a chance to study them or do clubs at school. Even if there are some schools doung this well already. Many aren't. My sons school doesn't.

I didn't realise this would be so controversial, and that people preferred the parents having to pay and organise for the out of school route to arts

I think Private schools should do a study on how well students with SEN perform at their schools compared to state...that is the elephant in the room and where the teachers and schools excel.

I think it healthier for children to have lives and hobbies outside the school bubble. There are so many hobbies and sports available, even the best school can only offer a small slice of them

But yes, I think heaps of state schools do provide lots of chances to get involved in arts and sports and other experiences. My childrens schools offer huge numbers of options both at lunch and after school.

I just don't see it has any bearing on a thread about GCSE grades and performance

The study found there was no difference between state/private for core but there was a difference in arts gcse results. The study suggested that this is because state schools don't prioritise the arts subjects due to progress 8 so they are not as well resourced.

Lots of people are saying but you can do arts outside school and for fun. I'm saying that those clubs are great but if you want to improve gcse grades, you have to actually teach the gcse content, which means resourcing the subject well.

You're really trivialising after school activities.

Both my children are accomplished at a very high level (one in an art, one in a sport), neither through school.

Their dad made a very well paid career from his sport without ever doing a GCSE/A level /career in it (not that one exists )

Universities wouldn’t do that because it’s not true. SOME private schools do igcse in SOME subjects but it’s certainly not across the board. English igcse used to be more difficult but it’s on a par with the most popular GCSE boards now. The Maths is more difficult which is why it’s popular in private schools as it's good preparation for A level. In addition, there’s always been a difference between the difficulty of the boards - have you ever suggested that someone taking Edexcel English lit should be given preference over someone taking WJEC? I doubt it, but the latter has always been considerably easier.

I am not trivialising afterschool acticitivies. I think we are talking at cross purposes

I have consistently said afterschool activities are brilliant and valuable, can enhance life and lead to careers. I have also never said you have to have a gcse/a level or degree to pursue these things as a career.

I have said that Gcse grades reflect teaching of gcse content. My son is very high evel in his sport. He didn't have to do any gcse pe content to get to that level, so being at that level would have no bearing on his gcse grade whatsoever. Which is what the study was measuring.

I feel like because the study under discussion was based on gcse grades, you feel like I am seeing gcse grades as the only the thing that is important. I'm just saying that in the context of this study, the gcse is the measure being looked at, and access to out of school curricular doesn't necessarily lead to increased gcse grades, in the same way something in school structured around gcses grades does.

I also dont personally feel afterschool activities are accessible to everyone and I don't personally feel that relying on parents to organise and pay for afterschool activitiies is good at society level for ensuring a wide range of people have access to arts/sports etc. I am very aware I pay a lot of money for music and sports and I would like a wider range of children to access that. One way is through the school curriculum being more balanced in distributing resources or for state school provision to be more even.

This article refers to exams sat in 2016/17 when, from what you are saying, the IGCSEs were harder.

Also private schools do igcse not gcse

This is incorrect. This varies across private schools. Many private schools mix GCSEs and IGCSEs, often choosing the path which is seen as more rigorous and a better preparation for A Level.

It wouldn't surprise me if many children could be taken out of selective private schools and do just as well in poorly performing state schools in deprived areas.

Firstly, because I think teachers in these schools are still good and will try to do their best for the child. (I've certainly known bright children who were outliers in poor perfomring schools that got more attention that they might have done elsewhere).

Secondly, because if you are a parent that jumped through the hoops to get your child into a selective private school, then you will be extremely hot on picking up weaknesses and gaps in your child's education and plugging them. And if you can afford private school then you can afford any amount of tutoring and enrichment. There's also a high chance you are well educated yourself - so will be able to support your child to a certain level without need for extras.

It doesn't seem an unreasonable conclusion to me that socio-economic background and parental involvement have more of an impact on outcomes than the school you attend.

DD did GCSE at Private school not IGCSE and DS will do the same

@Hoppinggreen Im basing this on the schools I’ve worked in and the fact the majority of my friends & family are teachers. A lot of them do tuition on the side, one friend now just has a tutoring business for 11plus. Equally no one at my DCs school really admits to tutoring but there are tutors all over the shop, we did tuition for Wandsworth 11plus just to familiarise dc with the format/reasoning, bumped into a fair few pupils!