challenging ridiculous uniform policy

[Clearinguptheclutter]

DS started y7 this week. It appears that it is compulsory for all children to wear a jumper underneath the compulsory blazer. There is an exception for this week only, and from June onwards but all other times they are expected to wear them.

They are allowed to ask to take the blazer off, but apparently not the jumper. In practice teachers we think are more flexible but that is the rule. Certainly when walking around school they are expected to wear both.

Both DH and I think this is completely batshit. As it happens DS is a rule-follower and will probably just go along with it but I just don't understand this reasoning at all. In whose interest is it for kids to be hot and sweaty when learning? Who on earth in the real world wears jumpers underneath suit jackets? From what we can tell the rationale is. a. the kids will look smarter and b. it gives the kids a "collective sense of identity". I rolled my eyes at that.

Anyway I'm also a rule-followed so will just hope it works itself out. DH otoh really wants to challenge it on the basis "why does the school think it can make a collective judgement on if our kids are too hot or not". In the real world if you are too hot, you take a layer off. You don't ask for permission. Obvs there are exemptions for certain professions for good reason. He has a call booked with the head of year to discuss.

Anyway just wondering what others think of this policy if you have them and has anyone ever succesfully challenged?

Or is my DH unreasonable for challenging and we should just shut up and put up. DH is telling DS "there is no need for you wear a jumper unless you want to and if anyone has a problem ask them to call me" which I don't think is terribly helpful. As much as I hate the rule I don't want to encourage DS to break it.

Surely the school will just keep the heating to a level that means the kids don’t get too hot? Saving money on heating seems great to me.

This was the reason none of ours wore coats, even though they walked to school and my DDs in particular very much felt the cold (also northern). No style of coat rules, but they had to be kept in your bag or locker, the lockers are tiny (if you are lucky enough to get one) and nobody wants a wet coat in their bags. Visible coats on the premises were consficated, even to the point that kids were stood in the rain at the gates taking coats off.
Utter stupidity.

It's not always the heating, summer can be stifling, some of the rooms in the kids school had big south facing windows that were painted shut.

Pupils have different levels of perception of cold, in particular girls tend to feel it more than boys. How are they going to find a heating level that suits everyone? Why not just leave individual pupils to decide for themselves?

@ClockwiseHoneysuckle

I understand that parents questioning ‘over strict’ school rules was a big factor in the decline of that particular school.

Parents who want to constantly challenge school policies need to be aware of what the consequences are when schools give in to demands for laxer discipline. What was once a good school has turned into a hell hole for students and staff.

I am sure it’s simple enough to find a mid level that is neither “I’ll faint” hot for those who run hot nor freezing cold for those who feel the cold.

So relax the rule in summer.

Let individuals decide whether they need their jumper/blazer on - are we not teaching them to think for themselves? Does the teacher ask permission to remove a layer of clothing?

A school does not become lax in discipline because there is no school uniform policy - it enables more time to be spent on teaching and less policing what everyone is wearing. How to do think the majority of schools in the western world manage?

So why is it that most outstanding schools in the U.K. have strict uniform policies and most terrible ones have lax uniform policies.

Of course there are other factors but it is no coincidence imo.

It’s a uk problem- DT’s and their cousins went to high performing schools in US, France, UK and Belgium - non of them ever wore at school uniform.

That's the common sense answer, but unfortunately not the tack our school took.

Two of our kids went to a fabulous no compulsory uniform outstanding primary (state).

@Parker231

I’m not sure comparing the U.K. to other countries is particularly helpful as we have a different culture.

I don’t think France and Belgium have the significant behaviour issues many schools here face. Parents also tend to have a better attitude towards education and wouldn’t dream of challenging schools like we see in the U.K. They also don’t tolerate poor behaviour from their DC.

I've never seen any sort of explanation for the existence of school ties.what is the point of them?
DS school has uniform which includes a tie. There is a short sleeved shirt (branded of course) that you can wear between (I think) April and July and you don't need a tie with it. It can be tucked out. If you wear a long sleeve shirt it must be tucked in, and should be worn with a tie.

This type of thing is complete nonsense, and has nothing to do with learning. the boys are constantly being told to tucked their shirts in....but they don't have to if it's a short sleeve shirt. It could be 12° in June and you can wear a short sleeve shirt.....but if it's 20° in September, you can't wear one! How does this make any sense whatsoever!

The idea of school uniform is given away by its name-it is designed so people dress the same and so identify with one another and the institution.

There is plenty of research on this, with mixed outcomes.

I think, in some ways, the more behaviour problems a school has, and the more diverse, the more important uniform and uniform enforcement is, as people don’t naturally identify with one another or the institution.

Schools aren’t offices and office rules are a really poor analogy.

As I said, I personally think uniform is a good idea with teacher discretion over enforcement. It is a messy compromise, but sometimes those work best.

It's impossible to draw any sort of conclusion from that without more information. What is clear is that you can't extrapolate any sort of principle that parents should never question bad school rules.

Or you could just let children decide for themselves whether they need to wear jumpers and blazers.

Simply not true. The school that regularly comes at or near the top of independent school league tables has no uniform. Europe and other countries are full of outstanding schools with either no uniforms or relaxed uniform policies.

You keep citing Michaela as an outstanding school, yet its uniform policy breaks the law in a number of respects. Is that really a good look for a school purporting to uphold good discipline?

@ClockwiseHoneysuckle

It is true in the state sector- virtually all top-performing state schools have strict uniform policies.

Private is a totally different context, particularly given that DC or parents who won’t behave or co-operate can simply be shown the door.

Apologies if I've missed it but is your DS too hot? Is he complaining that it is affecting his learning? If so, yes certainly approach the school. But if it's just you and your DH thinking it's ridiculous and your son is fine, leave it.