How do Asians and East Europeans e.g. manages to successfully to get their kids to revise long hours?

[examitis]

I'm not generalising here but, yeah I guess I am, based on speaking with some of my Asian and Russian friends, so am aware of how much their kids study for exams. Right through primary and now in early secondary.

Some started their revision after Christmas, others have been doing 10am-4pm stints over Easter hols preparing for end-of-year exams, on top of playing numerous instruments or sports or chess.

Before anyone says, 'poor kids, what about their social life and friends', the children I know who have a busy study schedule, all seem well adjusted. Maybe some do less sports than other kids but, on the whole, they're lovely.

A few of these kids are super bright thought most are like all the other kids in terms of ability, but they really seem to ace some of the tests (and get music exams) due to their incredible commitment and time spent revising.

Getting my kids to sit down for even an hour is like pulling teeth. One of mine is gifted but lazy!

I'd like to receive some advice on how to instill that drive and tips for how to structure revision and the after-school day. If at all possible.

Thanks.

Yes to that ⬇️⬇️
I think middle class UK parents are pushy too. They all pretend to be relaxed but engage tutors and send kids to everything from young, piano, swimming, prep at home for 11+.

And that ⬇️⬇️
In the UK, there is less social mobility through a very fragmented education system across the country.

Im always interested to see how English parents automatically think that if a (first or second) immigrant child is doing well it’s because the parents are awful and pressuring them. (And of course this.is.bad)
Whilst, at the same time, thinking that white English boys are at a disadvantage because if the system so thats why they don’t do as well (but it has nothing to do with the parents’ attitude to school)

And all the while they are also very happy to coach their dcs for the 11+, will move house to be in the ‘right’ area, take their dcs to multiple activities etc etc.
BUT it’s still bad for a child to do some/more homework if they are doing well 🤪🤪

@MangshorJhol - that sounds great. How old are your children and how do you enforce minimum screen time? Because we find that really difficult. My children are in UK grammar schools with lots of Asian children and their parents are also struggling now with zombie screen kids/phone addictions. They are all still doing work and music too, but the screen addiction is there. Other than keeping them busy with hobbies/talking to them/family outings it is very hard to get away from screens without fights, especially when they are older - of course, some kids are very motivated to work on their own, but that tends to be the exception rather than the norm.

@MangshorJhol - and what we are also getting now is mental health crying wolf. So my DD tells me some of her friends go to the school counsellor to complain about their “mentally abusive” parents - typically Asian with strong emphasis on routines and music practice (but also wholesome nutritious food, co-sleeping all of that). The kids are not mentally abused, they just know that some of their peers have less obligations at home so they are rebelling against it. There are of course tons of kids with actual mental health issues too, so I am just talking about the rebel type second generation standing up their parents - my daughter has a few friends in this category. They will make great lawyers, but they are not embarrassed to “expose” their parents so it is more a cultural conflict playing out.

Generalising, but its a culture thing. A high value is placed on education from basically birth and aspirations to become doctors or lawyers. You only have to read mumsnet, especially over lockdown, to see the attitude is let kids be kids, leave the homeschooling if you're struggling, they've had a hard time let them enjoy the summer etc etc. My opinion won't be popular and as I said it is a generalisation but it is what it is.

This is so true^

My DD is sitting GCSEs now and has been revising each evening, and 4 hours each day at the weekend on top of homework for this past year, l do not have to drive her as all her friends do at least that, and her school strongly encourages this as a minimum.
During lockdown she was at her desk at 8.30 online learning until 4.30 just as she would have been at school. I have sat with her every Saturday morning and if we are home some Sundays.to read, play educational games, supervise homework, her whole school life until this last year. It has often been light hearted and fun but always with an educational basis.
She also plays an instrument and has other hobbies.

I went to a dreadful school, came out with very mediocre grades, no one cared, fights daily were the norm, and aspiration was low.
I had to fight very hard, work incredibly hard, and attend night school for an access course, and do a degree at night school, to achieve the life l wanted....all along the way l have seen the huge advantage it is to be disciplined, and well educated, (and l don't mean just privately educated)
I have worked with and employed people from all walks of life and l can categorically say that parents do their children no favours by not placing a high value on education.
Whether they become Bankers or artists is not the point it is about having choices, and the education to have a full and fullfilling working life.

"You only have to read mumsnet, especially over lockdown, to see the attitude is let kids be kids, leave the homeschooling if you're struggling, they've had a hard time let them enjoy the summer etc etc. My opinion won't be popular and as I said it is a generalisation but it is what it is."

I've noticed this a lot. It's always on threads when someone says they get their children to do some work over the summer holidays. Some people appear to be genuinely horrified at the thought of a few hrs of maths over the entire holidays.
I have always encouraged my dcs to do some extra work. What that has done is helped them stay on top of what they're doing and given them confidence. That confidence then extends to a general love of learning.
I'm not in the slightest bit authoritarian but my dcs understand that working hard now will give them choices later.

I will write this and then seek cover (!), but I wonder how many people who advocate the 'let kids be kids and have fun' are financially/career-wise high achievers/earners themselves.

I don’t think working hard should just equal academic work. I don’t think every child is cut out for a huge focus on academic work. I think every human has their own distinct talents and only if their IQ and cognitive ability is high should they be pushed academically (and only in so far as it inspires them and gets them in the flow). I believe other children suffer in schools having to do GCSEs etc when it would be far better for their confidence and their skills if they were learning a trade properly that they could be passionate (and hard working) about. Of course, a basic amount of maths and English and general knowledge is required for life but it should not come with making kids feel lesser/exam pressure. Being labelled with a low GCSE grade age 16 is demoralising. I think kids should be taught lots of practical knowledge and team work that sets them up for life. They should be in school learning about stuff that inspires them.

I think this because I grew up in a country where trades are paid a high wage and are valued highly if they work hard and do a great job. The education system is also geared towards this and making sure there are loads of good quality apprenticeships available from 16.
So I don’t think academics should be the be and end all at all. I do think children should grow up to have duties, responsibilities, be a team player, be honest, chip in etc. but that can be done just as well with giving them chores and a role at home/casual jobs etc Learning is much more than academics. I have some friends who are in the building trade and take their kids into the workshop from an early age to make things etc. That is just as important as doing extra maths over the summer. Or if you are talented at art or writing etc - by all means share what ever talents or skills you have with your kids.

So I believe schools and parents should focus on helping children find their own unique talents and encouraging that.
Some of my children didn’t do much academics over lockdowns but they did learn to cook, clean their rooms, read the news, lots of progress on an instrument for one, another became very very fit - it wasn’t all about academics. The one who is really bright taught himself the Further Maths A level syllabus age 14, because he wanted to.

I am a high achiever and high earner and so is my husband and I want my children to be able to explore their own talents and uniqueness when they are teens. I want them to question authority and find themselves. Just as I did - my parents did not push me into anything nor did my DH’s, but admittedly we were educationally privileged and financially middle class.

Russia and China are autocractic societies where being a free thinker and questioning authority, even in education, is frowned upon. Teaching is of a high standard but spoon fed. That’s the opposite of what I want for my children. India is a very classist society etc. And yes, I have spent time in and lived in these societies, including going to university in Russia for a few months.

We are very lucky where we live that our children don’t have to spend their childhoods and teenage years working for hours every day. When you get to working life, especially at the top, emotional regulation, team leadership, empathy, knowing yourself etc all just as important as being good at your job and working hard. Our working environments are less hierarchical than in some other societies too and our education system feeds into that.

@Abuildingwith4wallsandtmrinsid The issue however is that when children are young it can be difficult to know what inspires them, while it's important they learn the basics re maths, writing, reading, putting a case together, etc. When they are a little older, they need to know that they must respect authority because chances are they will need to respect a boss in later life (unless they run the shop in which case they will need to learn to respect the board of directors, or even just clients and staff). Education is not just important because of the subjects it teaches you IMO - it's also important because it teaches you that in life you often need to do stuff you don't like, and you need to say yes when you want to say no, and if you make a commitment you need to stick to that. I hire people as part of my job - the ability to show me they can see a project through, work as a team and as individuals, work with clients, etc, is very, very important. Many of those skills are learnt at school.

It’s really interesting - what is normal for one family is massive pressure for another, and what one family sees as ‘keeping DC busy in the holidays’ is ‘cramming’ for others.

We have a rule that there’s no TV / screens until homework and music practice is done and I’ve checked if I need any help with cooking or chores. I thought that was pretty standard, but reading this thread makes me think perhaps others would see it as draconian. Especially as I have control over their devices, and a code on the TV, so if they want more than their set daily screen time they need to ask me for it.

And while I would never say I did schoolwork with my DC over the holidays, I would always take them to the library (and ensure screens only in the evening, so they got bored enough to read) and do various trips to parks and do the kids trails at museums or gardens. Which are educational, in a way, and not just ‘letting kids be kids’.

@Abuildingwith4wallsandtmrinsid
To be able to acually really understand a country you need more than going to Uni for a few months in that country.
I've lived in the Uk for 22 years, fully bilingual, married to a Brit, worked, had my dcs here. I'd say it took me about 10 years to fully get how english people 'are' culturally. Until then there was a lot of things that were still going over me, I didn't get etc...
I would never dare say that I know how a country is culturally from living a few months or even a few years there.

I also think that

• teaching chidren to work hard in that doing their best rather than just coasting by,


• teaching them that hard work will lead to earn rewards (eg if you work on playing guitar everyday youll get the reward of being able to play well easily and enjoy the process more than when you are starting)

is actually will allow them to be able to follow their interest as a teen and do what they want to do.

There is no way you can just follow your dreams and make them a reality wo having learned the power of work and resilience. No way it will work if they are used to things just happening wo them having to make more than a modicum of effort.

Suceeding at following your dreams, explore your talents etc... doesnt happen in vacuum.

And that's wo talking about the fact that not everyone has a specific talents and a lot of talents are learnt (from hard work) rather than something innate.

Exactly. If parents tell their dc that maths and English are only to be done in school then of course they won’t think that these subjects are important. Of course they’ll see them as a chore instead of developing a love of learning. They’ll fail. Your English exam results show that you have basic comprehension and inference skills and that you have a good grasp of the language (employers will bin a poorly written letter). You use maths (maybe not algebra) in your day to day life. It doesn’t matter if you get top marks or a pass grade - it shows that you have good work ethic and value yourself. That you have resilience.

Why is it the case of academia OR life skills? Why not both??

This is such an interesting conversation!! My parents were not immigrants (unless you count Scotland --> SE move) but it's something we talked about frequently when I was a child. My father believed that immigrants made the world work and grow and that it was largely down to their innate character. He travelled a lot for work and said that immigrants are the same world over - the ones who go/ emigrate were highly motivated people in the first place. This is what gave them the drive to go. He very strongly believed that these traits are passed down to their children, through their example and focus on academics. The best thing my father gave to me was his values.

My family are all dyslexic and I work very hard to help my DC with their school work. They need me to sit with them whilst they revise and we do it together. They also do 30mins maths and english on Saturday , Sundays and each day during the holidays. It takes me ages to organise it and help support them, but to me, it's essential. Their achievement levels are low, but I take solace in the fact that without home help, they would be much lower and they wouldn't feel so good about themselves. They both really struggle and are at the other end of the academic scale, but I think it's just as important for them to work hard, develop a strong work ethic and maximise their life choices.

This thread has made me feel so much better about it. Thank you, thank you. It's been a bit of an ah-ha moment for me. So many people (on here and IRL) say they've got to do it for themselves, that they don't help their kids, that school work should be handled by school, that school should see what level they are working at, let the kids learn how to be independent, etc. etc. I disagree and hide what we do at home. But I am so pleased that there are other people who encourage hard work too! I hadn't heard of the Michaela school, but will look it up as so interested. I worry that in the UK we are just teaching everyone to 'get by'. . .

@peoniesarejustperfect It doesn’t matter if your dyslexic dc have low or high grades. As long as they love learning, don’t give up easily and have great work ethic then that’s all that matters! It’s awful when dc have poor work ethic and zero aspirations. Quite sad. You sound like my parents. They were very young. My dad has dyslexia. They are the reason why I love reading and learning so much. Parental encouragement and input at home is so important :)

The biggest think I would say all parents in the UK could and should be doing is setting an age appropriate minimum amount of study time for evenings and weekends from infant/junior school and ensuring this is completed.

Screen time should be a privilege to be earned through effort and good work ethic rather than a right. Generally DC in the UK have far too much screen time that could be spent more prospectively.

It does depend on the child too.
I have one dc who would do her homework straight away and if she thought it wasn't good enough, redo it again, and even again if she wasn't happy.
Then one who does enough to keep out of trouble, but isn't keen on doing any extra.
And one whose attitude is "homework? What homework?"

In all honesty I wish the one who worked really had had at time been able to switch off and accept that sometimes one hour worked for 95% of the marks was fine, rather than 3 hours for 99%.

For a child who coasts along and doesn't really learn how to learn, I think sports might come in handy.

Thinking particularly of martial arts, where you literally get knocked over and have to pick yourself up again. In the US, little kids play T-ball and move on to baseball and softball, where it's unheard of to hit consistently well enough to get on base every time you come up to bat, and where the fielding element of the game has its fair share of challenge and potential for embarrassment. Any game where averages count and where there's a progression you work your way up is a good idea. Music is another field where you have to 'learn to learn', starting at the beginning and practicing, and moving up through the grades by sheer application.

Russia and China are autocractic societies where being a free thinker and questioning authority, even in education, is frowned upon. Teaching is of a high standard but spoon fed.

I disagree with your take on Russia.

I know Russians who were very privileged under the Soviet system, a family who enjoyed many of the perks that system offered. One was a graduate of Russia's premier maths and science academy and worked in the space sector, and the other in the literature end of academia. They are intellectually among the most curious people I've met, very keen to try new things, explore new avenues of thought, ask questions about things that puzzle them, and have very well trained minds, well able to observe and analyse, to see how their home country was floundering in the 1990s and that the prospects for their children were diminishing, and adapt to life in a different society.

To believe that people who obviously have good brains can be cowed by a political system into not actually using those brains, or seeing and pondering nuances is to feed into the ugly stereotype of the Asian automaton who can't navigate the complexity of real life and is only good at stuff that is impersonal, like numbers.

Have you ever seen the phrase 'You don't want to be that parent' here? Questioning authority in education isn't exactly encouraged, and bullying is so rife in UK schools that people worry about what to name their children so they can avoid becoming pariahs.

@Abuildingwith4wallsandtmrinsid Hi, so DH and I don’t watch much TV. I like sport. He watches the news sometime and we sometimes watch shows together in the evening. But the kids haven’t grown up with the TV on a lot. So that helps.

We also use books as the default. Always have a couple in my bag. If you are bored, read something.

I will say that my attitude has been that there is no artificial boundary between ‘fun’ and ‘learning.’ Learning to swim or ride a bike is hard work. That doesn’t mean we don’t teach them this. So is learning to play a sport or a musical instrument. As is learning maths or writing well. Everything takes effort or practice. If as parents we didn’t see one as ‘fun’ (aka my kids spent their summer only biking, swimming and playing football) and one as a ‘chore’ I think you can have a balance.

So like PPs we do ‘academic’ work in the summer. And bike/hike/swim/go to camp/go on holiday.

I also think this is a very interesting topic. My DH is Asian with immigrant parents whereas I am from a white middle class background. Our parents had a very different approach to education although both valued it highly.

DH's immigrant parents were keen for their kids to make the most of educational opportunities available to them in UK that we're not available in their home country. However encouragement in their case was a blunt instrument and anything other than A's were derided. I do think it was a culture of shame/fear. However DH did well for himself and pulled away from the poverty he was brought up in.

My family achieved similar results but with a much more targeted approach. DM was a teacher and placed a high value on early years education setting the building blocks for future success. I think she was right and I and 3 siblings all achieved very good O and A levels and went to university.

Our joint approach to our own children is based on my Mum's approach to early years. I taught 2 DS to read and do basic maths before primary school. We gave them lots of opportunities to learn outside of school including holidays, museum visits, sports, etc. I tutored them both through 11+ and both are now at secondary, one doing GCSE and both are high achievers. I have had to temper DH's fear of failure and tendency to only value the highest achievements and get him to trust me and my methods. He does and I have learnt from him that high expectations are also important.
I asked DS2 about why he thinks kids with immigrant parents do so well/try so hard and his view is that the racism in our culture means that they need to achieve more to be noticed and to overcome the element of 'white privilege' that still exists which I thought was interesting coming from a 14 year old.

I also have also noticed a tendency amongst parents of my kids primary school friends to be only worried about wether or not their kids were happy. With some there was easy acceptance of mediocre achievements and a fear of the consequences of failure to the extent that they did not encourage their kids to try hard. This was not universal but definitely not isolated.

@MangshorJhol - thank you. I think modelling the right kind of behaviour (working hard, reading, debating, discussion, looking after your health, exercise) is actually probably the most important thing.

@mathanxiety - this is an interesting article www.ponarseurasia.org/the-destruction-of-academic-freedom-and-social-science-in-russia/

“Countervailing Trend: Declining Academic Freedom

However, academic freedom, which had flourished in the 1990s and remained fairly protected in the early years of the Putin regime, came under increasing attack as Putin turned toward autocracy beginning in the late 2000s. In 2010 the Russian government established a commission against the “falsification of history” meant to impose penalties for publishing accounts of history that somehow cast Soviet actions in World War II in a negative light. The commission never really got off the ground, but it was a harbinger of more concerted efforts to bring to heel scholars who voiced critical perspectives on both contemporary and historical topics. After returning to the presidency in 2012, Putin steadily intensified a crackdown on civil liberties, with consequences for academic freedom. Laws on “foreign agents,” “undesirable organizations,” and “extremism” were offered tools to target independent research centers such as the Levada Analytical Center.’

@Mumski45 - that is interesting what your DS said. My children are also Eurasian - I ask them frequently if they ever experience racism in school, out and about etc. They are completely oblivious to it or have not come across it. In fact my DD has claimed in the past that she thinks it benefits her because the teachers assume she is good, works hard, will do well at maths and promote her in the orchestra etc.
I think prejudice/bias is everywhere, whether we like it or not, but sometimes it can work in one’s favour. So if teachers think your kid is going to do well that can indirectly contribute to your child doing well too.

Regarding immigrants, again there is a vast difference in terms of their social standing. If you are a middle class “immigrant” in a highly paid profession (consultant NHS, banker, lawyer etc) the experience can be entirely different than for someone who has arrived from another country with nothing and has to work minimum wage jobs and live in bedsits.
Racism is a very very complicated thing and in real life I have observed that people who are very confident with good social standing experience & capital tend to experience far less than poorer people who cannot stand up for themselves. It is often a question of power too.

I think if you investigate the long career of Yuri Levada, which spanned the post Stalin Soviet years and the transition into post-Soviet Russia, you will see that there is an effectiveness problem when it comes to stamping out thought in Russia, and before that, the USSR. The reason for this is that even Russian people have extremely functional brains. The findings of the Levada Center and its independent predecessors corroborate that observation.