How do Asians and East Europeans e.g. manages to successfully to get their kids to revise long hours?

[examitis]

I'm not generalising here but, yeah I guess I am, based on speaking with some of my Asian and Russian friends, so am aware of how much their kids study for exams. Right through primary and now in early secondary.

Some started their revision after Christmas, others have been doing 10am-4pm stints over Easter hols preparing for end-of-year exams, on top of playing numerous instruments or sports or chess.

Before anyone says, 'poor kids, what about their social life and friends', the children I know who have a busy study schedule, all seem well adjusted. Maybe some do less sports than other kids but, on the whole, they're lovely.

A few of these kids are super bright thought most are like all the other kids in terms of ability, but they really seem to ace some of the tests (and get music exams) due to their incredible commitment and time spent revising.

Getting my kids to sit down for even an hour is like pulling teeth. One of mine is gifted but lazy!

I'd like to receive some advice on how to instill that drive and tips for how to structure revision and the after-school day. If at all possible.

Thanks.

100% that sentence about the teachers failing rather than the students! IMO our kids need more opportunities to fail, and actually take responsibility for that failure, all the way through school.

@worriedatthistime Of course it's not. Not all children are forced to study 10 hours a day. A culture of hard work doesn't equal that. Lots of people commit suicide as adults and feel completely underprepared and overwhelmed by how harsh the world is.
I just think there are a lot of ways to mess up your child and equally a million and 1 reasons why people commit suicide.

Absolutely. My son was at university and had a Chinese student on his course. The student left a finals exam and went up to the roof of the business school and jumped off. Before he left the exam hall he told them he didn't think he had done well enough for his parents.

1- it starts very early in, when they are in reception
2- the work ethics is strong and they are told repeatedly that they have to revise through their years at school. Exam or not, they will do revisions, exercises etc…
3- when they arrive at GCSE or A levels, it’s so engrained they do it on their own.

At least that’s how I have been raised (European here).
I’ll be honest, with two dcs born and raised in the U.K., I thought that maybe I was over the top and I needed to chill out. So my dcs have done all the homework, always. But I’ve never ousted them to do them perfectly or to do more etc… It’s a big regret if mine because one of them has missed learning that hard work pays and isn’t something to look down upon. That it’s normal to work hard to get where you want. It’s not supposed to just land on his lap (which it has so far because he is able).

@Whitedamask If we lived near it my DD with an EHCP would be going. Their way of teaching is much easier for most SN kids to follow. All kids deserve people to believe in them and having high aspirations for them, regardless of SEN or what type of family they come from.
Severity of need is a whole different subject. The woeful amount of SEN schools is to blame for this and the level of high SEN in mainstream schools is not sustainable.

Also a lot of the Asian heritage children are from immigrants to the UK originally and probably their parents and/or grandparents experienced severe racism.

Working hard to become a doctor, an accountant or a solicitor offered you a way out of low menial paid jobs and potentially also the racist slander. It hasn't gone away completely but I'm sure having a top class education helps earn respect.

There's a saying about "you can take everything from me, but you can't take my education".

If you're kids aren't working it's because they don't see the value in good grades and the life that it leads to.

Show them what's on offer with good grades. Top grades. Visit Oxbridge perhaps? I never saw it. If i had, I would have worked much harder. I had no idea that was on offer. You don't know what you don't know. So inspire rather than provide fear.

So teach them, help them understand. The difference with Asian/E European is that they come from a life of difficulty and money and status are a way out of that.

White privilege gives you implied "status" in your own country already... Money, well, there's always Mum and Dad :)

I too was that kind of child but my environment wasn't nurturing.

I don't ever force a 'results' mentality on my children. I praise beyond praise their absolute efforts. I ensure that they're bonded and connected so they're actually quite a tight little unit. I make sure we eat at least one meal a day together. We talk about EVERYTHING. So much so that in my typically Indian household, my eldest child came out as gay to me and did not hesitate when telling me. I am very bonded to my children and that doesn't mean I get it a right, it just means I try a lot. I've surrounded them with books, debate, I've embraced controversy and ensured we are not an ignorant family. I've instilled respect of self and others in them and I've really worked my arse off to nurture their emotional growth.
They all know, whatever path they choose, so long as they are not causing harm, I will love and support them.

I truly believe talking to your children is key, they're never too young. I feel for teens and pre-teens that feel utterly stuck about any sort of path for their future because, no one has had that conversation with them.

I also firmly believe that SM and excessive tech have not been a gift to our world. Instant gratification is not a good thing. Comparison is even worse.

Btw i also think that there is a huge spectrum there.
You have to SE attitude that nothing is good enough etc… which puts a heck of a lot of pressure on students. And yes you end up with tales of young people committing suicide etc,.. that’s always the cases that are brought to love that expecting children to work hard and revise (on their own) can’t be an acceptable thing to do.

But the opposite of that shouldnt be letting young people/children do whatever they want. Children aren’t learning that hard work will allow them to learn unless they are guided and made to do homework and see the result of it.
Children won’t learn to make some effort and to appreciate efforts if they are taught the value of effort.

Thats very different from saying that one must attain perfect results etc… it’s expecting children to do the best they can, having worked hard for it. Which is totally different than doing something having put little effort into it.

I completely resonate with your thoughts. I do get a lot of 'feedback' that I'm not equipping them with the necessary skills for today's world. I disagree. They are not passive observers of life, they are engaged and kind and curious human beings.

The academics are to ensure that they understand that any future achievements, professional or not, require dedication. If they don't know how to apply themselves in order to get their desired result, how will they ever be self motivators?

@IsThisRealLife12 this 100%. The 'when will I ever use algebra in real life' line always makes me irk. It doesn't matter if you'll never use it. At this point in your life you need it and I need you to understand that applying yourself is rewarding even if you fail. Dedication is a good thing and teaches so much.

I do agree with you that many SN children would find the orderliness and routine in the school of great benefit. In fact I think all children, SN or not, would benefit from this type of education.
During Covid, my granddaughter's school abandoned their round tables and had the children sitting in rows. There was no outcry about it and my granddaughter said she liked it better because she could 'get on.'
And yes, the provision of SEN schools is pitiful in the UK.

My refugee grandmother said ‘when they come in the night, they can take everything except what’s in your head’.

Four generations later, and as a family we still prioritise education and make it clear to the DC that they need to work hard and behave well because nothing in life is certain, and education plus a good reputation will give them options they otherwise wouldn’t have.

Never at the expense of health, though, both mental and physical.

Immigrants aren’t representative of the general population, trust me, there are countless Pakistanis in Pakistan who don’t value education etc.

Racism plays a part, when you’re already on the bottom rung of society you have to do everything you can to prove yourself. Getting a good education and working hard is part of that. I grew up knowing I was the second choice, so I had to work hard and make myself as attactive as possible.

I hate that too.
Tried to explain to my dcs many times but they get taken by what the hear around them (and its easier too!).

I think it has another unintential effect. When they do the algebra, instead of actually just concentrating on doing it and doing it well, they have this feeling that it's all for nothing etc.. aka negative emotions about it. It actually amkes the while experience harder than it needs to.

If your patents come from a country with no benefit system I would think that concentrates the mind.

@Simonjt , in France, the idea of doing the best you can, going as far as possible study wise is very anchored. Its culturally there. Nothing to do with being an immigrant.

Does it everyone gets amazing results at school? Nope of course not.
But it doesnt change the fact that working hard at school is seen as normal, unlike the UK where children tell each other they are wrong for actually working hard (I heard that plenty from my teens)

Hmm I know an Asian lad, he stands out for the number of hours of work he does. He had no friends, and is completely obsessed with academic and financial success. He openly says how people less intelligent shouldn’t get rewarded, and that subjects like art or pe do not matter.

@Simonjt I imagine the middle classes in Pakistan value education? If you are the child of a peasant and there is no secondary school for miles,I can imagine that is not a great motivation! I once volunteered in China in a mountain village in Yunnan, the main aspiration of the boys was to be a soldier in the PLA and for the girls, I suppose it was to get married? This is completely different from the urban middle classes in China who often aren't even fussed about having an only daughter nowadays; all they want is a child who would go to university one day.

A friend once told me the vast majority of Pakistanis who immigrated to the UK are from the middle classes.

Also a country with limited pension provision where the children are expected to provide for parents in old age.

@IsThisRealLife12 your family life sounds idyllic, especially the having lots of chats part. If you don't mind answering, do you work? I'm asking as that level of revision and music practice is impossible to achieve when both parents work full time and kids are at after school club, at least during the primary years, unless you have a nanny or au pair.

I think a good rule of thumb is: work before play. It’s kind of delayed gratification. If you work now, you increase the chances of success in future. Of course nothing is certain, but I think most people can increase their chances by doing this.

you do have to make sure your study is effective though. Staring at a book for 2hours is not going to do much good. Parents sitting and showing kids how to memorise (cover up, repeat back), quiz their kids and go through maths problems (show them where the mistakes are) is v helpful. But I realise not all parents are able to do this - my dad struggled with the language in school work as it is not his native tongue, but my mum was able to help a lot. Some parents do shift work, long hours etc.

In that case, seeing how poor the benefit and pension system is in the U.K., it should have concentrated minds of ‘native’ children…..

@GrandSlamFinale,

I agree that emigration has an impact.

I remember being shocked at the complacency of the middle class white Americans whose children were my DCs' classmates. They were sure their children would be fine despite taking general level classes and not really applying themselves when it came to homework or studying. They were right - their articulate, white, middle class children were mostly fine and there were few problems money couldn't fix

As an immigrant though, you are conscious of the lack of friends and relatives and old university buddies ready to give your children a good summer job or an internship during university. You weren't raised in a society where entire swathes of the population could just coast along thanks to skin colour and the confidence of a generation of grandparents which came out of WW2 the clear winner and generated the sort of wealth that lasted well into the 90s and beyond.

Most of my classmates in Ireland were the grandchildren of farmers. Nearly everyone had parents who had somehow managed to go to university - somehow or other, in the school I attended, they all seemed to be engineers. The idea that education could make your life more financially secure and intellectually fulfilling than the hard scrabble of a small farm was clearly one that had taken hold. On a national level, the importance of education was highlighted in Ireland for many decades, with an exponentially expanding third level sector and a huge uptick in numbers staying in school until age 18. You carry that culture with you.

Even if you emigrate and you don't have a white collar career, you realise that the standard of education of many of the people you work with isn't a patch on yours, and that gives you high hopes for your children. So you find a professor of English literature in an Ivy League university whose parents arrived from Ireland in the late 70s and worked as mechanics and cleaners.

You recall the standard expected of you when you were in school in your native country (in my case Ireland). So you look at what your children are doing in mathematics at age 9 with a very raised eyebrow. If you're Russian, you not only raise an eyebrow, you are so horrified that you take over the teaching of mathematics for your own children.

If you're Irish, you might go out and buy a globe and some books about climate and how mountains were formed, etc, because you realise your children will never study geography, and you read the books with them and point out what you know about social and urban geography too, and the history of places other than the US.

The key is that your children know the score from an early age. They also have a sense of perspective that their classmates lack. I used to say what my parents said to me when dropping off my DCs in school - "Listen to your teacher" - where everyone else was saying, "Have fun!"

Hello, my life has been far from idyllic. I do work full time. My sector is Law.

My ex-husband left me in 2015 with 3 children (7, 3 and 1 at the time), he had an affair. When he left, he had no contact with our children and to this day, he has no relationship with them.

I met my DH exactly a year ago and we got married March of this year so up until that point, I was a lone full time parent and a professional.

I absolutely would not pretend that the level of interaction I have with my children is easily done, it is hard! Often to the detriment of your own needs -
especially when you're exhausted.
But when I see how they thrive and grow, how much love and dedication they have, when my 14 year old tells me 'I KNOW my worth and I'll never compromise it' - I feel wonderful that I see the benefits of the life we've built.
I won't let them have entitlement of any sort and thankfully at this stage they don't.

The revision and (self taught, we couldn't afford professional lessons when we got the piano), music practice is what they fill their time with. They also cook, spend a lot of time outdoors, argue like hell with one another and have the world's biggest stock of all things art related.
It works for us.