How do Asians and East Europeans e.g. manages to successfully to get their kids to revise long hours?

[examitis]

I'm not generalising here but, yeah I guess I am, based on speaking with some of my Asian and Russian friends, so am aware of how much their kids study for exams. Right through primary and now in early secondary.

Some started their revision after Christmas, others have been doing 10am-4pm stints over Easter hols preparing for end-of-year exams, on top of playing numerous instruments or sports or chess.

Before anyone says, 'poor kids, what about their social life and friends', the children I know who have a busy study schedule, all seem well adjusted. Maybe some do less sports than other kids but, on the whole, they're lovely.

A few of these kids are super bright thought most are like all the other kids in terms of ability, but they really seem to ace some of the tests (and get music exams) due to their incredible commitment and time spent revising.

Getting my kids to sit down for even an hour is like pulling teeth. One of mine is gifted but lazy!

I'd like to receive some advice on how to instill that drive and tips for how to structure revision and the after-school day. If at all possible.

Thanks.

I taught DD to read, age 3-4, she was able to read ‘big’ books by 5 (think Moomins, nothing fancy), the school was asking her to read Chip and Biff. uhhh, those bloody Biff and Chip books! They were okay in small doses, but at our dcs primary schools you had to read so many of each colour set before you moved to the next, regardless of ability. I told the teachers I wouldn't support the school home reading scheme, and that we would provide our dcs books ourselves based on what they liked and what we thought appropriate for their ages. Their enthusiasm and abilities flew as a result.

Such interesting insights and comments, thank you!

I must stress that although I said my parents let me get on with school work, it didn't mean they weren't engaged and involved in other ways. Any achievements were definitely positively received and they were encouraging like that. Worth adding that the country/ culture I'm from has, despite much less (none?) parental involvement with schooling, very successful scientific, engineering and creative companies/people/entrepreneurs ; I'd hazard a guess probably more international successful companies from my country than many others with a similar population size.

My mum would read to me for hours before bed, we had all our meals together, open and healthy debates at the table (even as a young child, my opinion mattered). I read the broadsheet paper from when I was 6/7 (but again, this was totally self driven and probably because I saw my parents read the newspaper every morning), we baked, we did gardening on our balcony, went to museums, parks, played lots of cards and board games. I loved spending time with my parents and I remember long summers of spending time outdoors, chilling and reading. It would never have occurred to my parents to ask me to do 'extra' school work. But it just wasn't a culture where you were expected to do additional work to your school homework (i.e. revision books, tutors etc did not exist). I guess I was a naturally driven and studious child, so that also meant they could be totally hands off.

So I'm trying to navigate around what I'm experiencing here (I've lived her for most of my life) and find it fascinating to hear how much time some kids (and parents) actually invest. I'm trying to find a middle ground but essentially find it hard to insist on work when what I ask them to do is so much more than I (or my British DH) had to do when we were young. We had so much freedom in that sense, more so than our kids in some respects.

My kids do very well. One is gifted so doesn't have to work hard for A* grades but I'm trying to instill the idea that effort and drive are important and that you should always try your very best. Although naturally competitive and enjoying tests, the homework produced is often of a 'bare minimum' standard. Other DC has high aspirations but procrastinates and probably should work harder. I do get annoyed with them both when I feel they have not achieved what they could have because they have not put the effort in (or any effort), but then I feel bad as I would never have had this type of response from my parents, so there is a real dichotomy there. I am also aware that it's important not to work too hard to avoid burnout before the key exam years (both my kids are happy with no anxieties - yet!).

Still learning...

Wow - that is a lot of extra studying. You've clearly done well and are not stupid at all. There must be some kids, even where you came from, with SEN needs. How did they cope?

Did you get used to all those hours of academic work (as everyone else was doing the same) or did it feel like a slog at the time?
If you had children, would you do the same?

My cousin is quite severely autistic. At 21, he is not very vocal, he doesn't really respond when you talk to him and he still can't buy food (though he can buy things from vending machines) His mum tried to send him to 2 schools- mainstream school in the morning and special school in the afternoon at first. Honestly that was more hardcore than what I was doing. This was later abandoned. He went to special school full time and is now at polytechnic. Polytechnic is more projects- based, only about 30% in my home country do A levels/IB (as the prevailing thought is that you should only do A levels if you are sure you are university bound, as A levels are not much use in the workplace) so the rest go to polytechnic where they do vocational training so its a lot of projects and also part of your grade is based on work experience. You can then go to university after polytechnic but would be in a better place than an A level graduate who failed to get into university. My cousin is apparently thriving in that environment as its less structured and the focus is on practical subjects.

I did resent the slog as a child but felt like I had little choice. I didn't want to be bottom of the class or not go to a good university. Asian parents and grandparents don't really shy away from telling you how difficult life would be if you don't do well so I guess I worked also because I didn't want my life to be difficult in the future. My dad told me from a young age; if you are not in the top 33%, your life would be very hard as capitalist society is fundamentally unequal. I was born in 1992 so this was pre 2008 financial crisis. We can disagree about the stats and I also don't think what he said was necessarily the truth but definitely society is becoming more and more unequal (inflation and asset appreciation means that the barriers for every successive generation only become higher so the young are at a disadvantage). Most British people would not want to acknowledge this; i have had people on mumsnet tell me I should move to NW/Wales rather than stay in London where the career opportunities in my field are because London is expensive. Most asian parents I know would encourage their kids to aim for the best university/best career and go where the jobs are (certainly my dad encouraged me to buy a flat in London so that I could focus on my career). If society is becoming more unequal, you cannot economize your way out of that. You can live in a place where a house cost £100k and shop at Aldi but what happens when there is no more state pension or you need to pay for medical treatment (because there is no more NHS). I feel like as my parents grew up without a welfare state, they don't take any government incentives/benefits for granted or think that life would automatically be the same for any descendants.. Its very different from my European MIL who assumes that the government would always help the poor and as long as you live cheaply, you can always make ends meet. She never encouraged her children to work hard at school for that reason, she said that education wasn't very useful (even though she went to university herself), and you should just try to earn enough to tide yourself over. In truth, in the past, you could buy a house with a single income in many parts of the UK so perhaps it wasn't worth it to pursue higher education if you could have a comfortable life while not being highly educated. I feel like for my generation and future generations, it would be an existential crisis if you don't earn well and this is true for people for every part of the country due to high house price appreciation even in the cheaper parts of the country.

I would therefore encourage my child to study hard and pursue higher education as it at least offers the most options for future well paid careers (even if its not a guarantee). You need maximum options in the face of increasing scarcity. It is more valuable than any inheritance; as inheritance can be spent. I think people who have always been privileged or always able to scrape by due to favourable circumstances when they were younger, may not always appreciate that

Very interesting thread and I agree with you onthefencesitter.

@BuddhaAtSea has your DD looked into access courses, or OU degrees?

She shouldn't feel she has to stay working at dead end jobs.

I remember a while back reading on The Student Room about students from these countries being unable to cope with assigmnents where they had to discuss the pros and cons of something then form an opinion.

It probably wasn't a good idea to repeat something you read in The Student Room without mulling over the reliability of the source.

There are lots of urban legends doing the rounds online.

I consider my wrist well slapped then @mathanxiety. By the same token I could say that mumsnet is probably not a reliable source either.

Wrt resilience - it comes from paying attention to the effort and not the results.

Celebrating results and achievements can hinder the development of resilience. It can make a child too focused on praise for the end product. Tying in an emotional reward to an end product means that the qualities which are really going to stand to a child in the long run are undervalued by the child, perhaps not even recognised by the child. A child who likes the kudos associated with an A, or has developed a self image based on the statement 'I get As in everything' at age 4-5-6 will often shy away from challenging subjects because he or she would not be able to emotionally handle a lower grade. A child whose identity includes the statement 'I am persistent, I work hard every day, and I am organised' may feel better equipped in an emotional sense to tackle challenges.

Acknowledging the 'effort factors' - factors such as persistence, organisation, curiosity, going the extra mile, time management, ability to defer gratification, and thinking and planning - will make the child aware of the way good results are produced. This is far more helpful in the long run. No individual piece of writing or maths test is important in and of itself at primary level. It's the work habits which go into the exercises that matter because if acknowledged they will produce a positive self image.

@BuddhaAtSea , I am in a similar position than and I fully agree with you both about expectations and about the attitude from school.
It's very hard to find the balance between what you want to teach them and what teir environment is teaching them.

For balance, I will also add that there are some positives from the english way of raising children that I have embraced with joy. But not about academic attitude.

@examitis I think that the environment ahs a lot to say about the attitude of children.
Of course you can teach them to work hard but if the environment they are in is against that (as in only nerds do that - and being a nerd IS bad - or if you need to work hard its because you are stupid so you dont want to be seen as working hard), it's very hard to still insist on them going above and beyond iyswim.

Eg I agree with @mathanxiety about resillience. But it's very hard to teach resilience to a child who is able and has to make no effort at all to actually do well.
Dc1 was in that place and of course, they reached a point when they hit a wall. I knew they would. I just wish they would have done that 5 months before their A levels.
That's the same child who is still amazed that one their friends who is straight A student (think Oxbridge wo any bissues) is still working hard, revising etc... No amount of explaining that the fact that friend IS a straight A student is BECAUSE they still go over board work wise made sa difference.

From reading MN, I suspect where you live also has something to do with it. More affluent areas might have a different approach. Where I am going to a University such as Oxford or Durham equates the person being a pompous twat. Not someone who worked hard let alone smeting to aspite to. The local Uni/colleges is seen as amazing because 'it's hand on work', not all the crappy theoritical stuff from <insert big Uni not far away>.
But we have no grammar schools, not 11+ etc... where I live either....

@examitis - I guess I would discuss the cost of living with my kids. The cost of a house, the average wages for different types of job. The qualifications required and competition for them. I say to mine that there are lots of routes to get where you want, but some are harder or take longer (especially if you do not get good qualifications as a child - you can study later, but usually you would have to work at the same time or take out a loan).

some jobs are impractical as the chance is very low (eg NBA basketball player when parents are short) - they are welcome to try, and any sport is good for health, but definitely don’t make it your only plan. Knowing the over-arching reason for studying hard might help. It gives you options.

But we have no grammar schools, not 11+ etc... where I live either.

Neither do we, which is a good thing IMO. DD's comprehensive school was very aspirational. They always had one or two go to Oxbridge, and always aspired for more. They were keen to promote to parents the post 16 destinations that the students went to, especially RG universities.

My mum would read to me for hours before bed, we had all our meals together, open and healthy debates at the table (even as a young child, my opinion mattered). I read the broadsheet paper from when I was 6/7 (but again, this was totally self driven and probably because I saw my parents read the newspaper every morning), we baked, we did gardening on our balcony, went to museums, parks, played lots of cards and board games.

That pretty much describes DD's childhood. She struggled a little with maths because she had a useless teacher so she had a tutor for maths GCSE and ended up with a high A*. She has a good work ethic and has to work hard to achieve well. It doesn't come naturally to her.

She achieved well at school with mostly A and A* at GCSE and all As at A level. She is just about to sit her finals in a STEM degree at a well regarded university.

I was one of those kids with authoritarian parents. My parents didn't actually start until I was about 13 but they were very hard on me, making me study in front of them for hours each day, way before exams started. Even though I loved learning, I studied because I was forced to. I got a rare place in medical school very burned out, didn't know how to think or study on my own and failed out, depressed and very angry. I've never forgiven my parents and now keep my distance. I don't want them to inflict that damage on my kids.

So yes you may see them get top grades when they are young and compliant but you don't see everything behind it like the emotional damage or where they will end up. Not every Asian or Russian kid gets great grades and goes to a top school.

I'll add that it's wasn't just been forced to study, but brainwashed into thinking that studying and grades is all that matters, over friends or anything else. Tutors too.

I live in SE Asia now where shopping malls are awash with enrichment centres, so after school classes/tutors for very young kids, primary and younger. They start very young and get used to working hours. It's very depressing to see.

@RampantIvy that's interesting isn't it?
No 11+ where I live but no aspirational schools either. Instead, it's all about bringing down peope who ARE asporational for being too full of themselves :(

That's a shame. Admittedly DD's old school would be described as a "leafy comprehensive" in mumsnet terms, so being brainy wasn't anything to be ashamed of. As there are no grammar schools in our county, and the nearest grammar schools are independent, DD's old school was truly comprehensive with a mix of students of all academic capabilities.

They also set for maths and English quite early on so, unfortunately the lower sets had all the disruptive pupils, but it meant that the pupils in the higher sets could get on with their work uninterrupted.

It has to be said that most of the students would have had supportive parents because we don't live in a deprived area.

This. Absolutely.

Avery interesting thread.

DH is Korean and I’m English, so my angle is quite unique. DH wanted to raise our DC with the Korean attitude to education, and while I was sceptical at first, I do think the west could learn a lot from it. In our house:

Each DC has to do a set, age-appropriate amount of study to earn screen time. Fundamentally we expect the DC to work as hard as they can and achieve their potential- whether that is straight A*s or straight Cs.

Effort and hard work should be expected and rewarded. There are also times- year 11, for example, when it really is necessary to knuckle down and put the hours in. DS1 is doing his GCSEs atm and is doing 4 hours of revision on school nights and 10 hours a day at weekends- why wouldn’t you be at this stage?

He isn’t being tied to a desk but is ambitious and knows the level of effort required. He is used to studying and working hard, having done it from a young age.

Parents have a role to play- the vast majority of teenagers don’t have the discipline or maturity to know the importance of studying hard.

Probably same country as some PPs. Mix of cultural and environmental factors. Discipline, conformity, regular testing from young and national standardised testing at 12, 16 and 18. Milder version of the way Russia and China train gymnasts. Told you have to sweep the streets for a living if you got Bs and Cs.

My old school sends over 50 to Oxbridge, more to RG and US Ivy leagues, a lot on scholarships. If you are not performing academically you are streamed to a lower set school and class from 13. This is not necessarily bad as they tailor to your level; some kids are late bloomers. If you still don't catch up you end up in a polytechnic or train for a vocation at 16. Whole nation effectively a grand scale grammar system.

Early years all learning through play. Primary school starts later at 7 but goes intense by 9. Secondary at 13, it is full on - everyone has to do music sport arts or clubs.

Parents work long hours. Flexi or part time unheard of. Mums work. Only crazy rich Asian types don't work... but they have to host charity galas etc, which is work. Working as a cleaner when kids are at school gets you more respect than being a housewife. Multi generational households so grandmothers can help. In return kids looks after their elderly, even give them some of their salary. Patriarchal - no SAHDs back home but in UK i meet a few.

STEM bias - guaranteed A*s as long as you practice, unlike humanities subjects, where you could construct a fluent and flawless argument and only get an A because the marker didnt like your style. I can write and spell better than my British native English DH...

I'm lazy (copied homework daily for 10 years) and an outlier in that I didn't have strict parents (but school was strict). But I thought that was a universal thing with Boomer parents. They don't give a shit about parenting like we do.

I think middle class UK parents are pushy too. They all pretend to be relaxed but engage tutors and send kids to everything from young, piano, swimming, prep at home for 11+.

I find my home country system more meritocratic, at least back then. My school had kids from very diverse families. They all do well, a number of impressive entrepreneurs so not all useless robots.

In the UK, there is less social mobility through a very fragmented education system across the country.

We are South Asian in the US. DH grew up in the States and I didn’t.
We are not remotely authoritarian but we maintain boundaries. I am their parent not their mate. From a very young age my kids have been doing a little bit of ‘homework’ every day. It starts off as say a board game, then a worksheet and some colouring. But we instilled it in them from day 1. So there is no argument about homework. They come home and get it done, and then move on.
One of us tries to be there when they get home so we are around as well. (we both work FT).
No gaming and minimal screen time. Kids watch and play plenty of sport though.

Both my kids are reasonably talented musicians. They both wanted to learn an instrument and I said fine, but you have to practice- 10 mins a day to start. We supervised it- had a reward chart and lots of praise till music practice becomes simply part of the routine.

And praise. I praise my kids when I can see they have worked hard at something. I don’t just say ‘oh that was marvellous darling.’ My kids know if I say ‘oh you did X very well’ I absolutely mean it.

DH and I both read a lot. We have read endlessly to both kids. We have family reading time. Our house is full of books. We always carry a book with us- it’s the default. If we are waiting somewhere for something I would whip out a book (both can read now) and read. They are both good readers although with slightly different tastes and preferences.

I am an academic and one of the things I notice is that I get a lot of undergraduates who are unused to being wrong and being told that they are wrong (in a non punitive way). Constructive criticism is something that’s really important to give children. The way I see it we work as a team. So if one of them has a concert we figure out what the weaknesses are in a piece. They work to fix it. We practice till we are at a point where it’s concert ready. So I can say to my kids: ‘your intonation in this section is not good at all’ and they won’t dissolve into tears or have a tantrum.

For the record we have never hit our kids. There is some horrible stereotyping on this thread. We don’t sleep train. I co-slept and breastfed both. They have plenty of play dates. They have loads of books and toys. We go on lots of holidays. They are very very privileged kids in many ways but I am trying to ensure they are not spoilt.

Maybe it's partly the size of the population in the Asian countries that the people come from. I think if I Iived in a country with a population of 1.5 billion and very visible poverty I'd have worked harder at school.

I'm in Scotland - there is a lot of disadvantage but mainly as a result of drugs/drink/mental health problems.
But every NT child gets a chance at 13 years of free education. If they don't take advantage of that it's a waste of their time.

@Ferngreen I never saw a homeless person in my life until I was 10 and visited Paris. I am not saying there are no homeless people in my home country cos that would be a generalization and I have seen some homeless people but there is far less homelessness. my Londoner MIL who visited my country was asking me what happened to homeless people. I said well there is 89% home ownership, and there are some rental flats for those who can't afford, and there is a legal mechanism for people to sue their kids if their kids don't care for them (exception for abuse) and also very strict drug laws so i guess homelessness doesn't occur at the same rate as London.

So I don't think I saw a great deal of 'poverty' firsthand, i see much more poverty in London for example. Though probably according to the measures, my country probably doesnt stack up well, but its a lot easier to hide one's poverty if you live in an intergenerational household where the total household income is higher. But the kids in my home country spend the most number of hours on homework.
But I think our awareness of bread and butter issues isn't derived from seeing 'poor people'; honestly many of the poor people in my home country are poor because they came of age when the country was poor so that doesn't really have much relation to my own circumstances. We were just taught from a young age we had to rely on ourselves, support our families ourselves and buy property; the government might subsidize some of the cost but there was no 'free lunch'.My parents still have problems grasping that healthcare is free at the point of use

Compared to here, the tabloid press peddle absolute untruths about the welfare system like you can get a free council flat if you are pregnant at 16, benefit claimants can afford huge TVs and holidays, you can get a 10 bedroom house if you have a lot of children and a nice life.

@onthefencesitter
and there is a legal mechanism for people to sue their kids if their kids don't care for them (exception for abuse) and also very strict drug laws so i guess homelessness doesn't occur at the same rate as London
Aaaah, that would make a big difference to how much effort I made at getting my DCs to study --- if they had to provide for me in my old age!!

And strict drug laws. Can't see that happening here though.

@Ferngreen the legal mechanism only applies if the parent is genuinely struggling. So my parents in their detached house and who own commercial property have zero chance to suing me lol. A lot of people my age still give their parents allowances of a few hundred dollars but that is hardly going to support most people. I have cousins who give more but their mum has around £800 of her own pension so actually they are just topping up.