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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Marking in state/independent

147 replies

Wipingsides · 16/11/2021 19:59

How often are your teens school books actually marked by teachers? My DC go to what's classed as 'good' state school & seem to be doing ok but the majority of work seems to be self assessed or peer marked. Just the odd assessment or actual test seems to reach teachers' eyes. Is this normal these days?! Would also be interested in hearing what experiences those in the private/independent sector have with regards this...

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MadMadMadamMim · 16/11/2021 20:06

When I worked as a teacher in a state school I taught roughly 10 classes with 30 pupils in each. This was History and all the way up to A level.

I once worked out that I had 287 pupils that year and if I spent 5 minutes every week marking their books it gave me 24 hours marking a week, on top of the 50 hours I was spending in school. My pay slip every month said I was being paid for 32.5 hours a week, 6.5 hours per day, 5 days of the week.

So it does not surprise me if teachers are only able to mark assessments and not mark every single written page. The workload placed on teachers is unsustainable.

Wipingsides · 16/11/2021 20:17

I get that & am not attacking teachers at all. Just wondered how they can effectively track progress of every child. Or is that the issue..they can't.

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Placido · 16/11/2021 20:19

My books at my top indie were not marked much at senior level - it is very different to junior/primary.

Tillymintpolo · 16/11/2021 20:20

Independent schools have smaller classes

pointythings · 16/11/2021 20:35

Peer marking for routine repetitive homework, teacher marking for larger pieces like essays and practicals - worked well at our state school.

I grew up in the Netherlands and our homework was not marked at all. It was gone through in class, you could be called on to present/answer at any time and if you couldn't answer or present, you would be marked down - and that mark counted towards your overall final mark, everything did in a weighted structure.

This meant I always did my homework for the subjects I was weaker in (maths, sciences) and never did it for my languages because I knew I would be able to answer whatever I was asked. Saved a lot of time.

We were assessed for each subject at least three times a term though.

lanthanum · 16/11/2021 21:08

Very common. It works very well for short answer tasks, where peer marking does a good job. The teacher can then focus their attention on the bits they've got wrong, rather than wasting hours doing ticks.

It's not as straightforward for what we used to call "essay subjects". However there's a limited number of hours in the day, so it's probably better to mark some pieces in depth than to skim through everything they write. I don't think DD's school have the balance right for English (I'd support English teachers having extra non-contact time to help) but things like humanities seem to do regular enough longer tasks which are teacher-marked.

Pointythings' post reminds me of an A-level class with 6 students I taught. One was very lazy, but mine was the one subject where he made sure to do his homework, because I didn't take it in - we looked at it together in the lesson and he looked stupid if he hadn't done it!

MrsHamlet · 16/11/2021 21:12

I teach English. School policy is to mark every 8 lessons. That's fortnightly.

Nowfeeltheneedtopost · 16/11/2021 21:58

No idea "how often are your teens school books actually marked by teachers" but very confident (and have just checked with Y10 DC) that she receives constructive feedback after tests/homework etc to ensure she knows what she needs to do to improve. Academic child at a state school, if that helps provide context

jgw1 · 16/11/2021 22:04

@Wipingsides

How often are your teens school books actually marked by teachers? My DC go to what's classed as 'good' state school & seem to be doing ok but the majority of work seems to be self assessed or peer marked. Just the odd assessment or actual test seems to reach teachers' eyes. Is this normal these days?! Would also be interested in hearing what experiences those in the private/independent sector have with regards this...
Whether or not work in books is beautifully marked is unimportant.

The important thing is whether or not the student is learning and understanding the material they are taught.
Secondary to that is whether or not the teacher knows what they do and don't understand. Marking books can be one way of finding out what a student can or can't do, but it is horrifically time consuming. Time that teachers rarely have.

Greenmarmalade · 16/11/2021 22:08

Assessment can look really different to marked books. It is highly likely the teacher is reading and assessing books, just not writing on each one. They can then spend time responding to the gaps in learning, or any errors/misconceptions, by planning teaching for the class to address them.

They may also use hinge questions, checking understanding questions throughout the lessons, cold call, exit tickets and a number of other strategies to check students’ learning.

Wipingsides · 16/11/2021 22:49

Thanks - this is all v reassuring. I'm obviously not in the education sector so it's very helpful to get your insights.

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XelaM · 16/11/2021 23:35

At my daughter's independent secondary teachers mark ALL their homework. They have to hand all their homework in and it always gets returned marked by the respective teachers. I like this system. Anything else is lazy and pointless

CakesOfVersailles · 17/11/2021 07:32

Any written answers (essays, foreign languages, etc) marked by teachers.

Any formulaic answers (maths, chemistry etc) peer marked or self-marked.

jgw1 · 17/11/2021 07:47

@XelaM

At my daughter's independent secondary teachers mark ALL their homework. They have to hand all their homework in and it always gets returned marked by the respective teachers. I like this system. Anything else is lazy and pointless
Pointless is a very good word to describe marking all homework, in fact it is a good word to describe most homework. Very often teenagers have worked out that it is most efficient to copy each others homework, and even beyond that, whether or not they have written their homework neatly in their book is irrelevant. What is important is whether or not they have learn the facts, or developed the skill that they are working on.
jgw1 · 17/11/2021 07:48

@CakesOfVersailles

Any written answers (essays, foreign languages, etc) marked by teachers.

Any formulaic answers (maths, chemistry etc) peer marked or self-marked.

Peer marking of essays can also be a very powerful way of learning. But it has to be prepared well by the teacher, which can take more time and effort than the teacher actually marking it themselves.
TheMarzipanDildo · 17/11/2021 08:00

@XelaM

At my daughter's independent secondary teachers mark ALL their homework. They have to hand all their homework in and it always gets returned marked by the respective teachers. I like this system. Anything else is lazy and pointless
Did you read the first answer to this thread? Hmm

Would you be willing to do 24 hours of work a week for which you are not paid?

Clymene · 17/11/2021 08:20

The teachers at private schools don't have to be qualified but that's ok because they mark all the homework GrinGrinGrin

Placido · 17/11/2021 09:23

@XelaM which school is this please as I would like to fact check. Never heard of this in either sector. PM me if you like.

jgw1 · 17/11/2021 10:53

[quote Placido]@XelaM which school is this please as I would like to fact check. Never heard of this in either sector. PM me if you like.[/quote]
To be fair I know of teachers that mark all of the homework they set the students they teach.
Because they don't set any homework.

Strangely there is no measurable difference between the results of students who are not set homework and those that are.

WombatChocolate · 18/11/2021 17:26

The key things are that there is assessment and feedback related to work. There are numerous ways to do this.

It can be traditionally teacher marked work…..this can take the form of random ticks, scores out of something, a grade, brief or detailed comments.

It can involve teachers providing ‘success criteria’ for tasks when work is set and teachers ticking on these to indicate strengths and weaknesses or targets.

It can involve teachers talking about work that has been done and providing answers verbally or on paper or another firm and students then marking their own or peer work.

It can involve teachers looking at work in class and giving verbal feedback.

Effective feedback involves students being pro-active and not passive. This means, students engage with their own work once completed to look at it was strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes this is called DIRT - directed independent response time. It needs to be directed by a teacher so students know what to look for and how to respond to observations. Students need to understand what is expected or what success looks like or what examiners are looking for. Them getting to grips with this is vital for progress. They need to respond to teacher feedback - identifying areas to improve/address and then doing it - either in current work or the next stages. All if this requires lots of teacher direction.

Actually, work which is all teacher marked work is ‘lazy’ teaching in terms of it enabling progress. Some posters on here might measure its success in terms of how many hours the teacher has spent doing it. Or how much ink has been spilled on the page. But this isn’t a measure of effectiveness. How much student ink has been spilled after doing the work and responding to feedback (given in whatever form) is a better measure of effectiveness.

Without doubt, teachers need to look at work and they need to give feedback. Efficient and effective are key words. It’s assessment for a purpose…for learning, not for its own sake.

So when you look at your kids’ books, look for teachers’ marking, but also kids and peer marking and particularly your own child responding and understanding what needs improvement and applying that going forward. Ask them what they need to work on and what is required in answers to do better. If they can answer those questions, things are working. If they have no idea, it’s not.

Wipingsides · 18/11/2021 17:46

@WombatChocolate thank you.. this is most definitely happening so I'm reassured. Really bad spelling doesn't seem to be picked up on or affect grades too much tho but maybe it doesn't matter as much these days?!

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jgw1 · 18/11/2021 17:51

[quote Wipingsides]@WombatChocolate thank you.. this is most definitely happening so I'm reassured. Really bad spelling doesn't seem to be picked up on or affect grades too much tho but maybe it doesn't matter as much these days?! [/quote]
How did William Shakespeare spell his name?

Placido · 18/11/2021 18:13

@Wipingsides I have a dyslexic DD so am always glad that spelling accounts for so few marks at GCSE. She gets great support from school but is always going to struggle.

SeasonFinale · 20/11/2021 18:01

@Clymene

The teachers at private schools don't have to be qualified but that's ok because they mark all the homework GrinGrinGrin
Such a daft comment because generally although they may not be qualified as teachers they do at least have a degree in the subject they are teaching generally unlike many qualified state school teachers.
Kikkomam · 20/11/2021 18:04

Indie.

90% of prep done on a pen enabled tablet/laptop so teachers can see and mark more or less straight away - maths, sciences. Everything written marked with in a week. Syllabuses all finish by Feb.

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