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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Marking in state/independent

147 replies

Wipingsides · 16/11/2021 19:59

How often are your teens school books actually marked by teachers? My DC go to what's classed as 'good' state school & seem to be doing ok but the majority of work seems to be self assessed or peer marked. Just the odd assessment or actual test seems to reach teachers' eyes. Is this normal these days?! Would also be interested in hearing what experiences those in the private/independent sector have with regards this...

OP posts:
Cornhill · 21/11/2021 11:30

At our school, there have to be three pieces of assessed work per half term. But it doesn’t stipulate whether peer or teacher assessed. So a few teachers do exclusively self / peer assessment.

I also know a local school who only mark one assessment a term.

I must admit, if I was paying £15,000 a year, I would expect my child’s book to be looked at!

Placido · 21/11/2021 11:43

@Kikkomam sounds like one of the better ones. But don’t confuse getting a well fed cohort with supportive parents to achieve a certain set of results with a wider education. State school children often do better at university as they have been taught without being hand held and are able to manage their own work loads and are not daunted by large lectures and tutorials.

purplebubblebath · 21/11/2021 11:52

My dc is at a well known prep. Teachers do mark the dc work but evidently rather quickly and basic things like often spellings aren't picked up on unless it's entirely necessary so mainly for English work if it's something like history, they'll mark the content rather than punctuation or grammar unless they happen to see it and it's obvious.

I just show my dc where they've gone wrong rather than pull the teacher up as I'm sure they've got enough to do but I would understand if not everyone agrees with that.
Not sure about secondary school though. The best teacher I've ever had (and I had some amazing ones) didn't give homework. He just did intensive learning within the classroom. The whole class got A-B in their A levels and this was at a shit non selective comp state school.

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 12:01

State school children often do better at university as they have been taught without being hand held and are able to manage their own work loads and are not daunted by large lectures and tutorials

Yes I often hear this. My own, and friends, experience doesn't bear this out at all and we all have privately educated kids who have thrived at uni, which is at the end of the day all us laypeople can go by.

XelaM · 21/11/2021 12:19

State school children often do better at university as they have been taught without being hand held and are able to manage their own work loads and are not daunted by large lectures and tutorials

Not in my experience at all. I was state-educated and my brother privately. He did much better at uni than me - Firsts in all undergrad/postgrad exams and went on to Cambridge and Harvard. I did well, but was lazy and I wouldn't say state school gave me any advantage whatsoever(!)

Placido · 21/11/2021 12:30

@Kikkomam @XelaM which is why I used the word ‘often’ not ‘always’. There will be exceptions that go against the research.

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 12:35

To be honest it's a bit laughable hearing someone confidently assert that private school students would be daunted by large lectures.

Placido · 21/11/2021 12:40

@Kikkomam I was at a very big co-Ed indie (Millfield) and yetthis was exactly my experience at uni. I was used to very small classes and despite the size of the school, I found at Uni I lost my ability to speak up until I got used to being with much larger peer group.

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 12:43

Well, that's your experience - I don't think I know a single Millfield kid who hasn't done well at uni - it's not hugely academic of course (or wasn't a few years ago)

HelloDulling · 21/11/2021 12:51

My big concern with the lack of marking of books is that when the exams come round, they are expected to use their books for revision. If the teacher hasn’t looked at them, they don’t know where the gaps are.

Placido · 21/11/2021 12:53

@Kikkomam I am using my anecdotal experience as you had used yours (I would actually rather talk about research as more interesting.)
In my day Millfield was very sporty and great for dyslexics. I was there for sports but got v good grades that got me in to a RG Uni. Then I really suffered from lack of confidence as was used to a very small class environment. I eventually caught my confidence up but not until post grad level.
We can pull out a piece of anecdotal evidence to support any theory can’t we!

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 12:54

We can pull out a piece of anecdotal evidence to support any theory can’t we!

Exactly. Glad you found your voice eventually!

XelaM · 21/11/2021 12:59

My daughter's primary (also independent) was one of those apparently "progressive" schools where homework never got marked by the teachers, the parents never received results of any in-school assessments etc. The result of that was that my daughter couldn't care less whether she has done her homework because it never got marked (except by peers of course at one point or another). Oh, and no one noticed that some topics (in pretty much all subjects) she had absolutely missed and never learned.

Contrast this with her current (old-fashioned) independent secondary where ALL homework gets marked by teachers and they have regular (at least two-termly) assessments, the results and copies of which get sent home to the parents. My daughter's attitude to her school work has been absolutely transformed. She is now very keen to ensure all her homework is done and actually studies for all her assessments to ensure she's well-prepared.

I'm not a fan of "modern" teaching techniques and much prefer the old-fashioned approach as I had in my school days.

Placido · 21/11/2021 13:02

@Kikkomam
Here we go.. much more interesting than our anecdotal tittle tattle! Now I really must go and do some housework and think about cooking a roast, but nice chewing the cud with you, I do love a mumsnet debate.
www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/news/state-school-pupils-do-better-at-university-cambridge-assessment-research-confirms/

Placido · 21/11/2021 13:03

@XelaM sounds like you have found the school that suits your outlook perfectly then. And hopefully you will find a similarly old fashioned uni for her as she clearly thrives on that amount of teacher feedback- there must be the odd uni lecturer who will give her that sort of attention.

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 13:04

Thanks - yes I have seen that research - pissing about and not taking it seriously seems about right!

EducatingArti · 21/11/2021 13:16

People seem to think that right/wrong answer work is easy to self-correct and doesn't need the same effort required to mark as essays.
This is only true if student's have got the correct answer by using the correct method. 5 students could get a maths answer wrong in 5 very different ways ranging from a total misunderstanding of the whole question to mis-copying a digit from one stage to the next. That's why online software like my maths only goes so far.
Teachers need to see where the students are making the errors so they can teach appropriately. This can be done as you go through things in class as well as by marking work separately.

Cornhill · 21/11/2021 13:20

It’s a bit snarky to be sneery about a secondary aged child being disaffected by no teacher feedback.

For one thing, there’s a massive difference between thirteen or fourteen and nineteen or twenty.

For another thing, there’s five years prep before GCSEs. University assessment tends to be more ongoing and so it’s easier to be motivated.

To put it another way, I think the American school system is similar, with ongoing assessment throughout high school years. University isn’t like never having your book marked, more like not doing coursework.

WombatChocolate · 21/11/2021 14:06

It’s interesting how ingrained the attitude is, that the more marking and teacher ink on the page, the better the teaching and the better the learning.

Some people perhaps, aren’t interested in engaging with what actually makes good teaching a good learning, but instead, what gives an obvious indication of time spent by a teacher on something…..and teacher pen delivers that.

There are lots of really good points made on this thread about feedback, about effective teaching and effective learning and where teacher and peer and self marking and other forms of feedback and review fit I. With that. But some people aren’t interested in actually thinking about it and considering what good teaching and learning involves….just whether there is lots of teacher pen.

In my view, this isn’t an issue about independent or state education. Good teaching and learning is good teaching and learning. Good and bad happens in both sectors.

Parents paying fees like to have obvious visible signs of what their. Mo year is paying for….that is understandable. One of the the things people can latch onto is the amount of marking or teacher ink. It is an easily visible and measurable thing. But again, as mentioned upthread, it’s not necessarily the sign of good effective or efficient teaching, the teacher who marks every piece of written work produced in class or Hwk in a book will spend countless hours on that, especially in written subjects. Is that the most effective use of their time which is finite….for those are so keen on it? If it means their lessons and teaching is less well prepared and effective, surely all the ink of the pages is t the best use of time. So it does have to be seen in that context too.

Teachers in some independents will have smaller classes so a lower marking and individual feedbacking load. That doesn’t mean they should be doing more marking and using the teacher pen than their state school counterpart, or that is the best use of the extra time their smaller classes might give them. Instead, there are many other things they could use the time for to benefit their classes. But these might not be so visible to parents or such a clear sign if ‘getting value’ from fees, so independent schools will often be under pressure to deliver more marking than might be actually useful and an effective use of time…..and who loses out…..well the kids, as they do in all schools where teachers do too much marking and can’t then do the things that matter more.

As everyone says, there is a place for teacher marking, in the traditional sense that people think if it as in teachers reading work and writing on it. But that’s such a poor little part of the whole process and if someone had lots of that without the other stuff, they would be having a poor education. Good teaching involves making sure students understand the succcess criteria for tasks or types of tasks before doing it. Marking without explaining those things first is a waste of time and often meaningless too (random ticks and comments like ‘good’ or telling a student they haven’t included something they didn’t know they needed to) and it involves the student looking at their work whilst it is in process and/or after completing it and annotating to show where things have gone well and not so well - it’s all about being at a point of awareness of what is required and knowing when your work is good or not and how to move forward. The effective teacher shows a student how to do this, so they can do it and move forward. It is teacher directed and not something a student magically learns to do themselves without help….but if they don’t learn this and only ever know if something is decent, because a teacher has written on it, how can they ever move towards the independence and progress all students need?

So an effective teacher provides success criteria for work..verbally, on paper, by other means. They scaffold tasks so students can meet criteria. They help students assess their work…by giving verbal whole class or small group or individual feedback, or providing mark schemes or sample excellent answers or sample weak answers, or exercises where students use mark schemes and mark themselves to understand poor, mediocre and strong work. They give exercises which involve students re-doing parts of their own work in light of these exercises. It’s a process of learning and moving forward and making progress with the individual tasks and then taking what’s learned onto the next task. All if this requires teachers planning such exercises and spending time in class with students. It’s so much more valuable that randomly spilling ink and saying nothing.

And still there is a place for the teacher marked piece of work. There’s a place for a teacher to mark a test of short answers or an essay of whatever. That could involve comments written in teacher pen, or marks made on a mark scheme or feedback sheet. But that’s just in part of learning.

Those so sure that more teacher ink=good teaching and less=bad teaching, just think a bit more about what good teaching and learning is actually about. And whatever experience your child is having regarding assessment, useful questions to ask them include;

  • did you know what you needed to do, to do well in this task before you did it?
  • do you know what you did well and what needs improvement in this task?
  • do you know how to improve the area that needs improvement in this task or in another like it in future?

The answers to these Qs show if your child is learning. And much of this isn’t down to how much teacher ink is on the page.

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 14:28

Good independent schools don't adopt detrimental teaching methods to "placate parents".

It's such a lazy trope on Mumsnet.

Cornhill · 21/11/2021 14:37

But you can’t teach effectively without knowing where your students are and what they’ve understood. That informs your planning.

You also can’t motivate your students if you rarely look at their work.

Hercisback · 21/11/2021 14:39

@Cornhill But I don't need to look at a set of books after a lesson and write something on the page to inform my planning. I know what the students do (and don't) know based on circulating during the lesson. I'd be a bit Hmm at any teacher that didn't.

Hercisback · 21/11/2021 14:40

@Kikkomam Marking isn't detrimental, it just doesn't have all the benefits some (particularly private school) parents think it does.

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 14:42

[quote Hercisback]@Kikkomam Marking isn't detrimental, it just doesn't have all the benefits some (particularly private school) parents think it does.[/quote]
Essays need to be marked and feedback given. Maths and science, not so much.

Amazingly not all private school parents are thick, and are perfectly able to see if their teens are learning effectively.

Hercisback · 21/11/2021 14:44

The feedback on essays can be verbal. Doesn't need to be written down to show it happened!

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