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Secondary education

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Marking in state/independent

147 replies

Wipingsides · 16/11/2021 19:59

How often are your teens school books actually marked by teachers? My DC go to what's classed as 'good' state school & seem to be doing ok but the majority of work seems to be self assessed or peer marked. Just the odd assessment or actual test seems to reach teachers' eyes. Is this normal these days?! Would also be interested in hearing what experiences those in the private/independent sector have with regards this...

OP posts:
Cornhill · 21/11/2021 20:07

I am quite an old timer, tbf Smile

I don’t necessarily think every single piece of work needs to be religiously marked, but the fact is, for a lot of students, if they know you won’t mark their work, they won’t do it. (That’s a general you - I’m not saying this is the case for you personally, but assessment is as much a classroom management issue as it is an assessment issue.)

Cornhill · 21/11/2021 20:08

And the point re class sizes was in response to workload. It makes little difference to outcomes for the students if their teacher has thirty or twenty two but eight more assessments to mark is a hell of a lot on a jam packed timetable.

SammyScrounge · 21/11/2021 20:10

Unqualified teachers in a classroom? That's illegal in Scotland. Surely that' s not allowed in England.

MrsHamlet · 21/11/2021 20:12

@SammyScrounge

Unqualified teachers in a classroom? That's illegal in Scotland. Surely that' s not allowed in England.
It is.
WombatChocolate · 21/11/2021 20:46

Teacher workload isn't addressed via more PPA time or smaller classes. Teachers are getting larger classes and less PPA time.

So, even very good teachers who know the 'right' amount of direct teacher marking that's needed amongst all the other myriad if feedback methods they are employing effectively, will find over time that they need to do less than optimum.

Let's not muddle the 2 issues, although we should see how they can be inter-connected. Teachers aren't choosing not to mark every piece of work because they are trying to manage their workload. Even with a very light workload, good teachers wouldn't mark every piece of work in the way people traditionally think about marking ...teacher pen comments. Good teachers know that effective feedback involves the students much more and is a process of teacher direction which helps the student think about the features of strong work, their own work and the next steps to do better work themselves. That could well be a teacher marked and formally assessed piece twice or three times a term. Don't forget there will be many other pieces where feedback is given in all kinds of different ways which mean learning and progress happens.

So, let's say for arguments sake, that 3 pieces is the optimum....that's 3 per class and there are perhaps 7 or 8 classes. That's 21 or 24 pieces to be formally marked across perhaps 12 weeks - still perhaps 2 sets per week of 30 pieces, which might take 5 minutes (at least) each....that could be 5 hours of marking. No doubt, there will be other smaller bits and bobs of marking, plus of course, preparing resources which are used in the feedback on other pieces of work the class are doing that aren't receiving this formal feedback.

Now, what if that teacher is given an extra class, because PPA time is reduced? What if their classes each have an extra 2 students? These are the kind of things that are happening all the time. The teacher could be looking at another hour per week. What if that extra hour is already on top of a 55-60 hour week? What if it's on top of an extra hour or 2 hours of admin that has suddenly appeared? You might well start to see that the teacher who rightly knew the optimum was 3 sets of marking, might decide for some classes to just do 2. It would be a way to manage. It might keep them going and stop them totally sinking. Would that class be failing to get feedback in any form or formal written feedback....no, just a bit less of it and it could mean they make a bit les progress.

It's very well to say that marking shouldn't be reduced and PPA time increased or class sizes reduced. But that isn't happening. The reverse is. So teachers do have to manage their load. If management don't do it and can't do it because of funding, do you suggest that as their class sizes keep rising and the number if classes go up, that there is no limit to what should be provided per class in terms of preparation time or marking? Is it an ever-open time limit and teachers just have to do whatever time it takes to deliver the optimum for every class? How can they when they aren't given the resources to do it?

Of course there will always be some rather lazy teachers who don't do or give as much feedback as a class need....that could apply to written marking or to other forms of feedback, I the same way there will be some teachers who do t spend enough time planning their lessons or doing admin. But please don't assume, that when there isn't teacher writing in the ex book every week, that the teacher hasn't given feedback to the students, or that they are one of the lazy few. It could be that what you see really is the optimum, or it could be that it isn't and that delivering the optimum simply isn't possible and the teacher is already working efficiently and doing well over 50 hours per week.

And what do you do if you find yourself in that situation as a parent? It's really difficult. You can contact the teacher, or you can complain to the Head of Dept or a member of senior leadership. No doubt, then the teacher might be under pressure to do more for that class. There won't be more time to do it, just more hours in the evening and weekend working. But I don't know what the answer is.....schools are massively under resourced and even in Independnet schools which might have smaller classes and lighter timetables, teachers often work 60 hour weeks.

Hercisback · 21/11/2021 20:56

@WombatChocolate 👏 👏 👏

Cornhill · 21/11/2021 20:57

I am well aware of the fact teachers do not get more PPA and that class sizes are not going down. I am not talking about what is happening. I am saying that we should not use teacher workload as a reason not to mark students’ work.

Hercisback · 21/11/2021 21:02

It should be part of the conversation. After all teachers are a resource and they should be deployed in the most impactful way possible in the directed time available (or the ~55 hours a week most teachers work). Spending 5 hours marking books comes with a cost of 5 hours less on lesson planning. There will be an optimum where less written marking means more lesson planning time and hopefully better outcomes. Writing the same comment on 30 essays is not an efficient use of anyone's time.

Cornhill · 21/11/2021 21:07

Herc, I realise we teach vastly different subjects and I wouldn’t presume to tell you how to teach maths. Essay based subjects however do need a fair amount of teacher input.

If you were eighteen and preparing for an A level in English lit, would you seriously be happy with your teacher only looking at your work four times before you sat your exam?

Hercisback · 21/11/2021 21:12

No, but I haven't suggested that anywhere. I'd be happy with 2-3 essays marked per half term. That's not every lesson of work that needs marking. There's also a difference between 6th form and lower down the school.

I know our English department have embraced whole class feedback to cut their workload. They still read every essay but then give a marking code plus whole class sheet. Parents may look and think "that's not marked". But it has been read and student have had feedback.

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 21:12

It has been shown class size has very little impact on pupil progress

Why would anyone believe this? I suppose it's convenient to believe it so that the government can tell state schools that 34 pupils in a class is fine, while simultaneously sending their own kids to schools where there are 16 in the class.

Cornhill · 21/11/2021 21:12

Then we agree. Teacher assessment is important. It matters more in some subjects than others and not every piece of work needs to be marked. It is still important.

Hercisback · 21/11/2021 21:17

Teacher assessment is important, red pen on a page isn't evidence that teacher assessment has taken place.

@Kikkomam from memory the research says something like from 18-32 class size isn't important, below that there many be some impact. But no state school will ever half class sizes as that would require double the funding so it's a moot point. My anecdata from the classroom would agree with the research.

Cornhill · 21/11/2021 21:30

And you call me old school - I thought everyone used any colour other than red, these days! Grin

WombatChocolate · 21/11/2021 22:02

I don't think anyone in teaching thinks teacher assessment isn't important. It's vital. Most teachers also know there are a variety of ways to give feedback and to allow students to progress. That does need to involve teachers reading full pieces of work (including essays) and giving feedback ....but there are a number of ways it can be done.

I am an A Level teacher in an academically selective school teaching an essay based subject mostly at A Level. I mark a lot of essays....but that marking varies. Sometimes I write comments in the margins and a detailed comment at the end. Sometimes I read the essay and have a student version of the levelled markscheme with the different aspects examiners look at and put ticks on that markscheme. Sometimes I have a list of numbered points which reflect all the issues that appear in essays, and I write numbers in the margins. Sometimes students write an essay and I do t read it. I might give out a couple of the same essay from a previous class and we look as a good and a better alongside the markscheme to see what it woukd get and what could be better, before the students mark their own. There are so many different ways to do it. I get great results and often have everyone in the class get A or above.

But I'm not marking every piece and my judgement about how much to mark is influenced by BOTH the fact I know feedback can be as or more effective without marking each essay, but ALSO my workload. So when Cornhill says 'we should not use teacher workload as a reason not to mark student's work' then I'm sorry but I don't agree and can't see how you can say that.

Of course, it would be wrong to do no marking or to give no feedback. But no-one has ever suggested that. But it is right that teachers make a judgement call about all kinds of things. They have to decide how much time to spend planning lessons. They have to decide if they will work on that planning until 9pm each night or keep going until 11pm. They have to decide if they will mark books or essays until 9pm each night or until 11pm each night. And if they decide that they are not goi g to mark a set because that means they wil stop at 9pm rather than 11pm, I would support them in that - it seems a very valid reason not to mark students' work. How could anyone disagree?

So what happens, is that the conscientious teacher thinks about it all carefully. They ensure any reduction that has to happen doesn't all fall on one class. Perhaps across a year, each class has one or two pieces of marking less. Perhaps that's a reduction from 12 pieces to 10 pieces across a year. And the conscientious and good teacher is still making sure that class have feedback, make progress and can approach their exams with confidence and are well-prepared.

But there is a tipping point isn't there. If workload keeps increasing, perhaps that marking has to drop to 9 pieces or to 8. Even with other excellent feedback, there is the need without doubt for teachers to read and give feedback on some essays and some other work periodically. There will be a point, below which, the students do lose out and progress is less. Everyone hopes they do t get to that point, but perhaps some have already and others might.

Can we say 'Teachers shouldn't use workload as a reason not to mark student's work'...what does that mean? Does it mean that if 12 pieces is the optimum, we have to do it, even if it tops us over 60 hours or means working a full day at the weekend as well as every evening? Are you really suggesting there is no limit to the hits worked where marking is concerned? Some might say that teachers need to be more efficient, to save time on planning or other tasks, and then there will be time for the vital marking tasks. But the point is, that every element is squeezed by resourcing. More classes mean more planning is needed. Yet there are finite hours for it. More classes at some point mean less time given to the planning of each class. More classes split between 2 teachers because the timetable is so tight due to finances, and cannot accommodate just 1 teacher teaching a class, means more classes and more planning. Again, unless you're prepared to keep increasing your already high hours, something has to give....planning, marking.....certainly not the admin that's non-negotiable and needs to be submitted. If funds in a school are tight and less teachers are employed, everyone might be asked to give more time to extra curricular, taking up another lunchtime. That's less time for marking, or it means another half hour in the evening. In an independent school it might be people being asked to do another duty, or to take more fixtures at the weekend, or to see more parents for 1-2-1 meetings after school - all of it means either doing more hours to do the marking and planning, or doing less of it.

So should teachers have a totally open-ended approach to work, because their students 'deserve' X amount of marking and planning? That's what it sounds like some people are suggesting.

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 22:04

But I'm not marking every piece you literally said you gave feedback on every piece?

noblegiraffe · 21/11/2021 22:05

Feedback doesn’t have to be written.

Placido · 22/11/2021 08:13

I know so many overworked and stressed indie teachers, it is no bed of roses where they have limitless hours to do red pen marking. They are also worried about pensions since their contributions have been taken over by schools. There is another strikes coming up according to today’s telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/22/private-girls-school-trust-teachers-vote-first-national-strike/

Kikkomam · 22/11/2021 08:15

@noblegiraffe

Feedback doesn’t have to be written.
No, I agree. But good quality individual feedback is important however you do it.
Hercisback · 22/11/2021 12:03

Does it need to be individual if 10 kids have the same misconception? Saying/writing it once for all ten is more efficient surely.

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