Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Marking in state/independent

147 replies

Wipingsides · 16/11/2021 19:59

How often are your teens school books actually marked by teachers? My DC go to what's classed as 'good' state school & seem to be doing ok but the majority of work seems to be self assessed or peer marked. Just the odd assessment or actual test seems to reach teachers' eyes. Is this normal these days?! Would also be interested in hearing what experiences those in the private/independent sector have with regards this...

OP posts:
Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 14:46

@Hercisback

The feedback on essays can be verbal. Doesn't need to be written down to show it happened!
Of course. My dd finds it useful to have it written down to look back at when revising. She'll make her own notes alongside.
Greenandcabbagelooking · 21/11/2021 14:48

I teach in a prep - work has to be acknowledged every lesson. This might mean I put a question for pupil to answer, comment on SPaG or presentation, or give a verbal feedback stamp. I properly mark assessments, but we do a lot of self marking, and more importantly corrections.

Hercisback · 21/11/2021 14:48

Which is fine for a small class to get that level of teacher written feedback. But for a class of 32,whole class feedback is good enough and impactful compared to the time taken.

Placido · 21/11/2021 14:57

@kikkomam Straight back at you. Amazingly not all state secondary teachers are 'thick' and are able to tell how effective their teaching, marking and assessment is, and don't need unqualified parents to tell them how to do it. As my DN's indie headteacher said at a recent speech day speech; "I do wish you would stop emailing us after you have had a bottle of chablis. Please leave the teaching of your children to us." My DB thought this was hilarious (he is not the emailing type.)

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 15:01

That's rude (I am also absolutely not an emailer - I trust my dds teachers 100% - marking and all!)

SydneySquare · 21/11/2021 15:02

Research based around 'marking and feedback'. educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/news/eef-publishes-new-guidance-report-teacher-feedback-to-improve-pupil-learning

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 15:02

Although the HTs comment gives lie to the idea that they would adjust their teaching to placate parents...!

SydneySquare · 21/11/2021 15:09

From the EEF research 'Method of delivery, verbal or written is less important than ensuring the principles of effective feedback are followed'.

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 15:12

It also says written feedback can be good and improve attainment. But points out that it is time costly.

SydneySquare · 21/11/2021 15:15

www.gov.uk/government/publications/school-inspection-handbook-eif/school-inspection-handbook

Point 73
OFSTED
'does not specify the frequency type, or volume of marking and feedback'

Marking in state/independent
SydneySquare · 21/11/2021 15:22

I regularly monitor in schools. We look for the difference the marking and feedback makes to the progress of each child. It is about the knowledge and skill of the teacher to move learning on, how they do that doesn't matter.
Reams of inaccurate written comments or comments that are too broad or non specific are less effective than one or two written comments which are specific to the subject and defined next steps in learning fir the child.
Moving learning on quickly is more effective through direct verbal feedback between teacher and child. Why wait!

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 15:23

UPDATE
A previous version of this article reported that the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) had found that based on the degree results of all students who graduated in 2013/14, 82 % of state school pupils got firsts or upper seconds, compared to 73% of those from independent schools. Following publication of this article, HEFCE has confirmed that that it made a transposition error, and in fact, 73 per cent of state school graduates gained a first or upper second class degree compared with 82 per cent of independent school graduates. The statistics have now been removed from the article

Fwiw

Namenic · 21/11/2021 15:24

I went to v good private school almost 20years ago. All essays were marked. Short pieces in foreign languages were marked. I would have felt v discouraged if they were not marked as I spent quite a while doing these.

I’m pretty sure all maths and science homework marked as well (though sometimes we did exercises in lessons and did peer marking in the lesson). Foreign language vocab tests were peer marked in lesson. I feel that feedback is most effective when given soon after the work and it’s particularly important in essay subjects - but understand the constraints in the state sector if there are 30 pupils per class.

Placido · 21/11/2021 15:48

@Kikkomam
"However, she added that the error did not affect their main conclusion that “for all but those with the very highest A-level grades, state school graduates tend to have higher degree outcomes than independent school graduates with the same prior educational attainment”.

@kikkomam Yes it is a very popular oversubscribed prep so they can push back at bothersome parents but they do still endlessly try it on. My friend is a head at a prep where he can't push back much as school finances in a precarious place- but we tell him he can just enjoy writing a 'secret head' type book when it is all over, there are some very funny stories.

Cornhill · 21/11/2021 16:00

I don’t believe you can know exactly where your students are from merely circulating. I’m not saying it isn’t helpful because it can be.

I don’t always circulate either. Sometimes it’s detrimental to classroom management to move around too much.

Hercisback · 21/11/2021 16:07

I teach maths, if I can't tell from circulating and looking in their books during the lesson, then how would it be any different looking after the lesson?!

I accept we're talking about different subjects but no one way fits all. Marking classwork for maths is 99% useless and gives me no more information than I already had.

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 16:08

for all but those with the very highest A-level grades, state school graduates tend to have higher degree outcomes than independent school graduates with the same prior educational attainment

Well yes, a student that comes out of a good indie with small classes and CCD at A level probably wouldn't be as successful at uni as a state school student with the same grades, as universities realise when making lower state school offers.

Cornhill · 21/11/2021 16:14

Fair enough re maths. There’s no way you could just circulate and give meaningful feedback on an essay in a lesson for thirty students.

nomoneytreehere · 21/11/2021 17:12

My daughter is year 9, independent school.

Day to day class tests are peer marked. All homework / formal tests are teacher marked.

Placido · 21/11/2021 17:24

@Kikkomam explain your reasoning why please? And why that then doesn’t apply to the a* grade that the article specifies.

Also a teeny tiny percentage of children at state schools get contextual offers - probably similar to the amount at indie’s on bursaries. Kids at good comps and grammars won’t get near a contextual offer.

Kikkomam · 21/11/2021 17:34

Why do A and A students from private schools do better at university than state A and A? No idea!

Placido · 21/11/2021 18:19

@Kikkomam you sounded so assured in your post I felt that you must have a reason why that happens.

WombatChocolate · 21/11/2021 18:52

As well as the issue of lots of teacher pen not actually being the best way for children to learn how to make progress (see upthread lots of comments about what actually does aid learning and progress) I wonder about people's thoughts about appropriate time spent outside the classroom working for teachers.

A number have spoken about Prep and Independent Senior Schools which often have longer hours anyway, including regular extra curricular activities after school/weekends....well teachers have to plan lessons don't they and also do admin. How many hours should they be marking on top of that, or how long do you think it would take them to do the marking some of you are suggesting they do?

In the state sector, an A Level class can have over 20 students. Some teachers might teach an essay based subject and have 2 classes in both yr 12 and 13, as well a several GCSE classes and lower school too. Some who teach just an A Level subject might teach 6 A Level classes with over 20 in each. Are you suggesting they mark 120 essays per week, which might each take 10 minutes?

If a teacher has 7 or 8 classes across a school, most of which could have 30 students, are you suggesting they take in and mark well over 200 books per week? How long do you think it would take to look at those and to even write a very brief comment? That's time to be given after going to meetings, planning lessons and doing admin?

So there are 2 points - one is that loads of teacher ink and the idea that everything should be marked, just isn't the best way for students to progress anyway. Lots of people do t seem to want to engage with that idea but still equate more teacher ink with 'good teaching' and somehow good progress. It's lucky to be honest that there's loads of evidence that weekly marking of every book by a teacher isn't the best thing, because it would never be viable anyway because of time. Do the calculations. Those pushing for teachers to mark every homework or to mark weekly or to mark all longer written answers or whatever, please suggest what the limit on marking time ought to be....or isn't there one?

No doubt, some people will say this post is about teachers trying to reduce and limit their workload and not being interested in students doing well. Well actually, managing of workload does need to happen. Teachers are leaving in droves, because of the excessive workload and expectation that can fall on them, some of which can be marking related. There is a crisis in schools and in lots of schools, growing numbers of children are taught by supply teachers, non-specialists and a stream of short contract workers, because so many are leaving. This needs to be acknowledged.

Great teachers give regular feedback which helps students progress. This takes numerous forms and the great teacher manages their time well to give the amount of time they can give to detailed written work marking, to the most well-chosen and best-targetted pieces for this. And they work out multiple other ways to give feedback to students which might not involve writing in books, but which can often be far more effective. Their skill and experience tells them when marking is needed and best and when a different feedback mechanism is right. The detailed written comment on an essay or in an exercise book, is just one small way that feedback happens. It might be the most visible to parents, but please realise how many other ways there are...some used as necessity to manage finite time, but also at the same time, because a variety of methods work for different things and actually very often, some of these other techniques actually deliver far more progress. But I guess some people just aren't willing to entertain the idea that this could possibly be true, and just see it as purely being to reduce workload.

Cornhill · 21/11/2021 19:56

I absolutely agree teacher workload is an important consideration.

Not marking students work is not the way that should be addressed.

More PPA time and smaller class sizes should be the way teacher workload is addressed.

Hercisback · 21/11/2021 19:59

@Cornhill You're coming at this from a very old timer point of view. There is no need to mark every piece of student work (even in English). 3 assessment pieces every half term is enough to tell you where students are at and what they need to improve. I get the rest of my information live in lessons.

It has been shown class size has very little impact on pupil progress. One of the biggest impacts on pupil progress is well planned lessons. This is where your time is best spent.

Swipe left for the next trending thread