Relocating to Ireland to do Leaving Cert rather than A Levels

[princeofpersian]

I am from Dublin. Primary and secondary school in Dublin. Undergraduate in Dublin. Masters in England. Worked in Dublin for three years before relocating to London. Wife is Australian. Two daughters, two school years apart. Currently coming to end of state primary school in London.

We're debating whether at 16 post-GCSEs it might make more sense for them to move to Ireland and do Irish Leaving Cert rather than stay in London and do A-levels.

Pros of doing Irish Leaving Cert:

• Study 7 subjects rather than 3/4 as for A-level so better for a generalist. Even for someone who has a clear idea what they want it can be good to be able to keep up a modern language as well as doing science subjects. A bit more of a challenge starting university, particularly in engineering/science, as Leaving Certificate level obviously is not as high as A-level.

• Fees at fee-paying school in Dublin are a fraction of independent day schools in London. About 1/3 of the cost.

• Admission to Irish universities is solely on grades (except for a few exceptions such as medicine where there is also an assessment). It's difficult to get admitted to an Irish university with A-levels. Need to take 4 A-levels to get points corresponding to 6 Irish Leaving Cert subjects. General perception that Irish universities want to limit number of undergrad admissions from England because otherwise they would be overwhelmed. Studying for Leaving Cert gives certainty about university entry (subject to getting the grades) with cost of university EUR 3,000 per year compared with £9,250 per year in England.

• Apart from Oxbridge, getting admitted to an English university with an Irish Leaving Cert does not seem to be more difficult. Daughters would have the advantage of having GCSE grades in addition to Irish Leaving Cert which should make them more "standard" from the perspective of English universities.

• Particularly in terms of how Covid handled Irish system seems to work more fairly and be more robust than the English system.

Issues as follows:

• No girls boarding schools in Ireland apart from two in Tipperary (in the same town!) which seem like lovely schools but are nothing exceptional in terms of academics. From people I know who attended the mixed boarding schools in Dublin, e.g. St Andrew's and Wesley, I would not want my children going there. Only girls only boarding option in Dublin is Alexandra College.

• Alternatives to boarding are to attend a day school or Institute of Education two year programme and live in digs. My sister lives on her own in Dublin and is close with my daughters and would be happy to have them, but I think it might be too much for her.

I think I've written more than enough so very happy to get some thoughts.

Are all of you planning to move back to Dublin forever then? If the long term plan is to remain in the UK then I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve by putting the dcs through the Irish system - they wouldn't be going to uni in Ireland if you're all here. Or am I missing something?

My youngest is just out of her teens, and I have 3 who have been through the secondary and university paths. It can be really hard to visualise your DC as teens, but for what it’s worth, here’s my thoughts:-

Given they’re 2 school years apart, they won’t both have GCSEs (assuming they still exist)!

From what you say, The Irish Certificate is broader but doesn’t have the depth of A levels so they could be at a disadvantage at the beginning if they chose an English uni for undergrad.

For students with some learning disabilities eg Dyslexia, MFL eg Irish, can be really tricky and pull down the overall results. (I understand this is compulsory?) Fir context this was only spotted for DD in upper sixth, and her Spanish GCSE result is a complete outlier against her other results.

Finally your plan will involve uprooting your teenagers away from their friends, schools, city they’ve grown up in, clubs they belong to etc just at the stage of their lives when they’re becoming independent.

My advice would be if you feel it’s a better system then do it sooner rather that at 14/16

It sounds like they would be moving to Ireland but you wouldn't? If I have that right, I think I you would have to weigh up the pros and cons of them being separated from their parents in their teens with any of the other potential pros and cons of getting Irish vs English qualifications.
Seems a strange move to me.

I think if you prefer the Irish schools and Universities you should all move there permanently asap. Not many teens would want to leave their home, parents, friends, boyfriend, home, city, hobbies and country. They may love it but it might make them very unhappy.

I would check the rules very carefully for Irish university fees - if you send your children to Ireland purely for education they may be classified as overseas students, it is certainly the case in reverse no matter your citizenship.

Do the kids want to be sent overseas for education? They might prefer the local state 6th form!

If the only 'problem' you're trying to overcome is the fact that the UK specialises relatively early, then IB at sixth form here would resolve that. And when the time comes they might actually want to specialise!

Sooty just realised you’re planning to have the DC live in Ireland, in digs at 16 and attend day schools.
Sorry but unless this something they really wanted and bought into, then I think it would be a non-starter! Plus can you rent somewhere at 16?

I'm going to be that annoyingly person who points out that the UK does not specialise early, England, Wales and NI do, Scotland doesnt, its more like Ireland.

International Baccalaureate. I did an IB 1995-1997 because I found the slimming down to (then) only three topics too limiting. Was the best decision. I ever made. Challenging (then equivalent to 5 a-levels) and the hardest I ever worked … my first degree was much easier!

@Wbeezer

I'm going to be that annoyingly person who points out that the UK does not specialise early, England, Wales and NI do, Scotland doesnt, its more like Ireland.

Quite right sorry

I went to Alex! There was a girl who lived in digs whose parents had moved overseas and she didn't want to board. It felt quite hard for a 16 year old. There were 2 English girls who boarded (Irish parents living in England, I think) and it kind of seemed like they didn't settle (though tbf they were a fre years below me so I only knew them through boarding). I considered moving back for the reasons you mentioned but think the whole family need to be Ireland by the time the child is 16. On balance we have decided we just need to save for UK university fees.

There is also Rathenew if you are set on boarding (not far from Dublin) or I think Loretta Dalkey used to take boarders. Though tbf my knowledge is about 30 years out of date.

Many thanks to everyone for all the responses.

Follow ups as follows:
(i) my wife could not get equivalent role in Ireland without requalifying and that would take at least a couple of years;
(ii) I could not get an equivalent role in Ireland but my employer does have a Dublin office that I could work out of pretty much as I liked, although I would need to manage my time in Ireland for work/tax reasons.

We don't particularly want to relocate to Dublin. This is about two years of each daughter's life. I'm not sure that a permanent relocation makes sense.

We are also looking at IB. However, from what people have told me it is tough (as MatureStudentAgent says) and the same person doing IB vs A levels would likely end up disadvantaged in terms of university entrance with IB compared with A levels.

No learning disabilities. I don't think they would take Irish for Leaving Cert. They have not studied it up to now and they should be exempt from needing it for university entrance in Ireland. They've been learning Arabic as a MFL since age 5 so no issues with MFL.

Agreed that this is something that they need to have bought into themselves. However, I did find this comment a bit odd: "Not many teens would want to leave their home, parents, friends, boyfriend, home, city, hobbies and country." Most English teens going to university leave all of those apart from their country. My impression is that most non-ethnic minority English prefer moving away to go to university than living with their parents while at university. My daughters certainly don't see their country as England/UK more than Ireland - if anything the other way around. I wonder if I was asking this as British expats in Dubai or Hong Kong people asking about sending daughters to Britain for A levels people would look at it differently - but that's very much the same idea for us.

Oh- Rathnew closed in about 2004-!

Sorry- comment about whole family being there by the time the child is 16 was wrt domestic fees for 3rd level.

Going away to uni at 18 is completely different to going at 16. It's one thing if you're going to a full boarding school all set up for pastoral care of kids away from their parents in another country at that age...a very different kettle of fish if they are living alone and going to a day school in a new country at 16!!

Just a quick reply to Apparentlystillchilled. Under the Ireland-UK agreement entered into in connection with, but separate from, Brexit, Irish studying in UK get treated as UK for uni fees purposes and UK studying in Ireland get treated as Irish/EU for uni fees purposes. So I don't think there's any issue with my daughters having to pay intentional fee rates to study at an Irish university - even if they went from doing A levels in the UK. However, I understand that in practice the Irish universities "manage" the number of British students they admit through how they give points to A level grades for university entry and more generally admit on basis of Leaving Cert. The advantage of the Leaving Cert is that it's pure grade based and my daughters would be on a level playing field.

How about the so called grind schools. Personally I HATE them. They signpost everything that is wrong w the leaving very... No attempt at a holistic education. Literally just grinding factual knowledge into kids to get them more points. But they might do well for you? I know people who provide accommodation for kids going to the grind schools. Often they kids are lodgers - breakfast and dinner provided. Often it’s like a home away from home atmosphere with an Irish mammy threatening to ring your parents if you are not back from study at exactly 15 minutes past 10pm etc.

Is the issue that you fear your daughters won't get into a top university in the UK doing A levels because they will be discriminated against somehow? Are they at a very selective independent school?

Or that you want them to be able to go to university in Dublin and fear they won't make it in because of quotas for English students?

Ah, thanks OP. My eldest (who is only 12 tbf) has long talked about going to TCD so thats good to know. I feared that our kids now counted as non EU/intl students.

"If the long term plan is to remain in the UK then I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve by putting the dcs through the Irish system - they wouldn't be going to uni in Ireland if you're all here. Or am I missing something?"

My wife and I might plan to be in the UK for the next 20 years of working life. However, that does not mean that our daughters would be. There's no particular reason they would go to university in the UK rather than say Ireland or even Australia. They are citizens of UK, Ireland, Australia and another country. Outside of the top ranked universities, the value proposition at £9,250 per year is not great at UK universities relative to other countries. I don't think someone who's grown up in London at schools where the majority of children have at least one parent from outside the UK sees it as any different going to university in Newcastle or Edinburgh than in Dublin or Galway.

Apparentlystillchilled: I'm from a mixed marriage: father TCD; mother UCD. Both are great universities but the four year TCD degree was a selling point for me. I'm sure your son will have a great time there and get a lot out of it if he goes.

"Is the issue that you fear your daughters won't get into a top university in the UK doing A levels because they will be discriminated against somehow? Are they at a very selective independent school?"

They're currently coming to the end of state primary school. Honestly, I think (i) A levels are a bad exam except for a small percentage who know exactly what they want to study at university already and (ii) English university entrance is a complete mess.

For example, I believe A levels are a significant contributor to the fact that so many English people have no second language skills. If people have to study only 3/4 subjects they're much less likely to continue with an MFL than if they have 7/8 subjects. And increasingly because the numbers are small and immigration from the continent/elsewhere has been higher there's a significant cohort doing A levels that speak French/German/Italian/Spanish as a first language or at least have grown up somewhat bilingual, and rationally if you're looking to get the top grades and have been learning a language exclusively as a second language you're going to struggle against that cohort.

In Ireland (and Australia) university entrance is based on grades obtained in final school exams. It's pretty black and white. There are exceptions for mature students and some socio-economic access schemes. However, in UK it seems like university entrance has been taken over by social engineering and is getting more and more complex as people game the system. For example, one parent said best to send children to independent school for GCSEs but then put them in a good state sixth form in a not so affluent area, as the university's numbers then look better on state school/geographic admissions but your children still get the benefit of the indie education. I understand that this is a cultural thing and I try not to judge, but it's not the culture(s) that my wife and I are used to.

In Ireland (and Australia) university entrance is based on grades obtained in final school exams. It's pretty black and white. There are exceptions for mature students and some socio-economic access schemes. However, in UK it seems like university entrance has been taken over by social engineering and is getting more and more complex as people game the system.

I don't think that is really true OP. I imagine you are referring to what are called contextual offers, when high potential students from lower achieving schools are given a lower offer. But this is only by a grade anyway. AFAIK uni entrance in England and Wales is pretty standard - you apply with good GCSEs, the required predicted and a good PS and you should get an offer; achieve the grades and you are in. Both my uni-going DC did that and got five offers. Where they ended up was based on their grades. Nothing complex, and I can assure you no gaming.

Under no circumstances would I send my teen daughters to live in digs to finish their secondary school education in a different country.

I think you are mad to consider it tbh. If you want your children to go to school in Ireland, move there. If you can't move there then accept you live in another country so your children will too.

I also like the Irish system of admittence based primarily on grades but I wouldn't like it enough to have sent my children back to Ireland without me age 16.

You’re thinking so far ahead and making lots of assumptions about what your children will want to do when they’re much older! There is no way most 16 year olds would want to leave home and go to another country without their family just so they could do a different set of exams.

Much better to focus on their education in the UK and supporting them in what they ultimately want to do with their lives. Who knows, they may have no interest in attending University and might choose to follow very different paths.