Relocating to Ireland to do Leaving Cert rather than A Levels

[princeofpersian]

I am from Dublin. Primary and secondary school in Dublin. Undergraduate in Dublin. Masters in England. Worked in Dublin for three years before relocating to London. Wife is Australian. Two daughters, two school years apart. Currently coming to end of state primary school in London.

We're debating whether at 16 post-GCSEs it might make more sense for them to move to Ireland and do Irish Leaving Cert rather than stay in London and do A-levels.

Pros of doing Irish Leaving Cert:

• Study 7 subjects rather than 3/4 as for A-level so better for a generalist. Even for someone who has a clear idea what they want it can be good to be able to keep up a modern language as well as doing science subjects. A bit more of a challenge starting university, particularly in engineering/science, as Leaving Certificate level obviously is not as high as A-level.

• Fees at fee-paying school in Dublin are a fraction of independent day schools in London. About 1/3 of the cost.

• Admission to Irish universities is solely on grades (except for a few exceptions such as medicine where there is also an assessment). It's difficult to get admitted to an Irish university with A-levels. Need to take 4 A-levels to get points corresponding to 6 Irish Leaving Cert subjects. General perception that Irish universities want to limit number of undergrad admissions from England because otherwise they would be overwhelmed. Studying for Leaving Cert gives certainty about university entry (subject to getting the grades) with cost of university EUR 3,000 per year compared with £9,250 per year in England.

• Apart from Oxbridge, getting admitted to an English university with an Irish Leaving Cert does not seem to be more difficult. Daughters would have the advantage of having GCSE grades in addition to Irish Leaving Cert which should make them more "standard" from the perspective of English universities.

• Particularly in terms of how Covid handled Irish system seems to work more fairly and be more robust than the English system.

Issues as follows:

• No girls boarding schools in Ireland apart from two in Tipperary (in the same town!) which seem like lovely schools but are nothing exceptional in terms of academics. From people I know who attended the mixed boarding schools in Dublin, e.g. St Andrew's and Wesley, I would not want my children going there. Only girls only boarding option in Dublin is Alexandra College.

• Alternatives to boarding are to attend a day school or Institute of Education two year programme and live in digs. My sister lives on her own in Dublin and is close with my daughters and would be happy to have them, but I think it might be too much for her.

I think I've written more than enough so very happy to get some thoughts.

We have a couple of local schools who have students in ty from other European countries, lodged with local families who board language students in summer.
I don't know who takes an in loco parentis role. I assume a senior teacher?

the more i read, the more i think the girls might be open to moving away.

My daughters' primary school will only let year 6 go home from school on their own, and then only with written permission. However, when the children go to secondary school in year 7 some of them are trekking for an hour each way across London on their own. It's not rational at all. Similarly, we're fine with sending teenagers off to university at 18 (or 17 in many cases in Ireland - my older sister only turned 17 the August before she started university) but somehow the idea of a 16 year old living separately from their parents Monday through Friday is problematic.

I find the attitude weird too. The UK is the only state I am aware of where very young children are sent off to boarding school. It's very much an acceptable part of the culture.

The only students I know who gave had interviews are those applying to Oxford or Cambridge. Otherwise it pretty much goes on grades, as I am sure you are aware. Maybe the op doesn't want his DC to go to uni in the UK, in which case this is a moot point.

@clary
Or maybe the OP has an inkling that his children are bright enough to go to Oxbridge? In which case, a very brief perusal of articles on diversity in Oxbridge might give him pause.

UCL and Imperial also interview. In many other universities interviews are required for specific courses.

Most require personal statements.

In Ireland there is none of that faffing that tends to favour British public school and independent school students. Computer says yes/computer says no.

www.theuniguide.co.uk/advice/ucas-application/checklist-university-and-degree-subjects-you-might-be-interviewed-for

What happens to students in Ireland who are strong in some areas eg science and maths and poor at humanities? Or students who are great at languages and essay writing but poor at maths?

@RampantIvy
If they want the points enough, they work hard enough to get the grades in the subjects they believe they are poor in.

The myth of innate ability is rearing its head here. It's one that is held dear in British culture, with an associated belief in individual genius.

Students can be poorly taught or they can be conditioned to believe things that are not true about themselves - 'girls can't do maths, physics, or chemistry' is one, or 'boys can't and shouldn't be interested in French or literature' is another. The Leaving Cert forces students out of their comfort zones, or more likely out of the boxes they have been put into.

Ireland has a variety of different third level options alongside traditional universities, all of which are accessed via the CAO system.

I agree with math on her last post. My strength is completely in the humanities but I did 2 science subjects to leaving cert because I wasn't yet certain what I wanted to do. DH who is a STEM person did latin and greek in the leaving. He has spent his entire career in science but if he was to go back to university in retirement it would be for classics or history. Very few people are truly one-dimensional.

Also, it can be a true learning experience to have to grapple - in later school years especially -with a subject that does not come naturally to you. One of my daughters is very very academic but is best at history/english/language. She chose to do honors physics in her very competitive high school. The girls in the class she was friendly with headed off to harvard/brown/mit for STEM subjects eventually. She found the year really tough - but she perservered, she got a sold B., she learned how to learn from peers/study group, and she got a really good understanding of what it might be like NOT to grasp a subject and still have to do it - so she has nothing but sympathy for people in her classes who don't take as naturally to the subject as she does.

Also - and I know this is not considered a good thing in the UK and Ireland - but the US liberal arts undergraduate education is a fabulous model. My humanities children still had to take calculus/labs/science/art. My engineering child still had to take art/humanities/music courses.

Which is why we have so many overseas students. I am in a university Facebook group, and the number of overseas parents on there, even in covid times, is very significant.

You might like to check out the figures for international students at University College Dublin and Trinity College, at both undergraduate and graduate level, and at all the rest of Ireland's third level offerings too.

hea.ie/assets/uploads/2018/07/report_internationalisation_of_education_2018.pdf

You do need to see how your daughters develop over the next few years. At the end of primary mine looked like she would be on par for an academic career.
As she went through secondary it became clear that her interest in performing arts was not just a hobby and was a serious career path for her: She is studying an OCR which is equivalent to 3a-levels but encompasses many more subjects (also look at T-levels for a broader education).
She is at a college which students travel from all over Europe to be in it's sixth form. These are highly motivated students who travel because it is one of the few colleges that accept overseas students for this very specialist course. But it is hard in digs for these 16/17/18 year olds. The college has an incredibly strong pastoral element and without this students in digs would not get through the course - this year being exceptional hard as they were unable to travel home at Christmas and the directors of the college hosted some students for the main 3 days of Christmas. They survive and thrive because they are very motivated due to the exact nature of the course and this strong pastoral care. I am not certain that in an ordinary school it would be so easy to do well both academically and emotionally. I am just very glad that the college is with commuting distance for us as I think my 17 year old would have found it really tough in digs.

My point was the it doesn't matter whether interest accrued makes their total loan debt £20k or £220k. They pay the same. After 30 years it stops. Treat it as a tax. It's remarkably similar to the Aus system in all but name.

A 'tax' on getting ahead on top of the rest of the tax you pay is a disincentive to ambition.

Regardless, the OP's point is that Irish universities are far more affordable.

...the US liberal arts undergraduate education is a fabulous model. My humanities children still had to take calculus/labs/science/art. My engineering child still had to take art/humanities/music courses.

Agree 100%, Pallisers
I had to see it with my own eyes to believe it, but I am a believer now.

I'm not sure London to Dublin to live in digs at 16 is that different from Killorglin or Claremorris to Dublin to live in digs at 17 as people with whom I was at university did.

There's a huge difference and you're not thinking it through.

One of my best friends left home at 17 and lived in "digs" while doing A-levels. When I think back on eBay she got up to, wow! Think drink, drugs and lots of sex.

Her (Irish) parents had no idea! She hid it from them well. Because she was the only one living independently at that age, her place became the party house. I remember her confiding in me that she used to revise by candlelight, keeping the light off so friends would think she wasn't in else she'd get nothing done. That's not to say she managed well, I believe being the only one of her peers living alone probably did impact her grades.

A totally different kettle of fish to us all going off to uni at the same age.

Teenagers mature fast and there's a lot of difference between 16 and 18.

The differences between the systems have been clearly explained here, but you're not factoring in the upheaval in your DDs moving to live alone.

You're comparing the two systems as if your DD will be on an equal playing field with either. But they won't. Regardless of which country they're in or how much they feel it's their cultural home, they will be at a significant disadvantage to other 16 - 18 year olds if they're doing their leaving cert having been uprooted from their friends and immediate family and having to start again while living without close parental support.

This is a huge spanner in the works and I'm not sure why you can't see it? It's got nothing to do with people not being familiar with the Irish system and everything to do with being familiar with teenagers and human emotions!

I really feel for your DDs. What does your DP say about this? Does she mention their emotional well-being when this idea is discussed?

eBay?!! What a weird autocorrect!

It should say, simply, what she got up to...

I live in Ireland and have just sent my daughter to England to a boarding school for A levels.

I know a number of parents who do this because they have sporty children and require the ability to manage training and school with final destinations being US university sports scholarships.

There's no reason why it wouldn't work the other way. Do what works for you and your family and understand that at 16, the decision to board / move school needs to be led by the child.

Boarding school discussions on Mumsnet are always a bit sensitive and many posters don't agree with it.

I was a former international boarder myself so it's not an alien concept for me to consider boarding especially for the last 2 years of school.

I'm not sure why you're making the point about Irish universities being more affordable. You do understand that while you'll save about £20 on uni fees in Ireland, you would have to pay for accommodation for two years for your daughter, which will work out (in Dublin) at around £20k?

There’s also Rathdown in Dalkey for all girls boarding. Alex is an excellent school and has a nice new boarding house. There are lots of international students there. Boarding plus tuition would be quite pricey though. Head teacher is excellent and pastoral care is also excellent, however most girls at the school are from very wealthy Irish/international backgrounds. I think living in digs would be very lonely for a 16 year old There is huge pressure for any kid doing their leaving Certificate and really they need their parents at this time. If you are going for digs you have a huge choice of all girls schools. In fact the majority of schools in Dublin are either all girls or all boys. If you want your girls to go to university in Ireland don’t underestimate the cost of renting student accommodation. You would be looking at at least 8K euro for that on top of 3k fees and at least 5k for living expenses. There is a big drinking culture in Ireland and this is also something you want to consider if you are seriously considering sending a 16 year old to live here alone in rented accommodation.

HandScreen - not if they stay with their aunt in Dublin.

Hi, Sutton Park School is excellent. It places international students with host families,
boarding closed some years ago. Can do leaving cert or sit A levels also.

If your daughters are academic (and I get the feeling they are?) then I would keep them in the UK. You can always find a school that offers bac if you want a broader base than A levels. I work between the two countries and deal with lots of people relocating both ways. Both systems have their strengths, but the general feedback I get is the Irish system is more middling - lacking the highs and lows of the UK. Parents coming from the UK with academic kids in private/academic schools have been disappointed by lack of drive and extra-c activities in Irish schools (of course that also means there is less pressure.) I have never been told BTW that A levels are a problem getting into Irish universities, and I can think of a few families that have done this. It seems unlikely to be that Irish unis are worried about being inundated by Uk students - I think fees at TCD for example are pretty similar.

If you do look at Dublin schools St Andrew’s is one that seems to work better for UK parents.

@mathanxiety and @Pallisers I agree with your points, but only up to a point. Poor teaching of a subject is a major factor – which is why DD didn’t do French at GCSE as the MFL teaching at her school was abysmal. A young person can try their hardest to attain well at a subject they find difficult, but you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

Oxbridge/medicine/vetmed all ask for high A level grades. They all want 3 excellent grades rather than 4 good grades. It has been shown that students who would struggle to get 4 excellent grades will do better dropping down to three subjects. When DD and her cohort started their A level courses in 2016 her school still did AS levels. DD achieved AABB in her AS exams. She dropped a subject and finished with AAA at A2. These were decoupled so she still had two years of learning for each subject to revise for.

And while DD is a STEM undergraduate, her GCSE results show that she was a good all rounder. She had to "grapple" with her A levels, and has to "grapple" with her degree. Nothing comes easily to her.

In Ireland do they make allowances for students with dyslexia, dyscalculia, slow processing speeds, other? Or do they just tell the student to work harder?

@princeofpersian

"Ha, how is that saving money, flying to London every weekend and paying €8,000 a year in boarding fees."

London independent school fees (non-boarding) for A levels = more or less £20k a year

London-Dublin Ryanair flight return bought a couple of months in advance = £60, add travel to/from airport at each end, say £100 return * 30 weekends (and it's not going to be that number of weekends, probably more like 15) = £3,000

However, cost of two years to LC is not the key issue. Real issue is LC better exam than A-levels combined with more clearcut access to university in Ireland, and saving £25k in fees. The fact that English university fees are paid back through taxation does not change the fact that they still need to be paid back. The English university fees system is a disaster: (i) high paying job it's fine, paid off in a few years, not screwed by interest rate; (ii) low paying job, never end up paying much, loan written off after 30 years; (iii) earning £25-50k per annum - totally screwed.

The remember that the GB£9000+ fees are usually paid back through taxation, not paid upfront.

Leaving the academic system and emotional maturity bit aside, have you thought through/experienced weekly commuting by air? It really isn’t as quick and convenient as a 50 minute flight. The reality is it takes a lot longer than that.

I used to do Dublin to Stansted regularly and whilst on paper the flight time is quicker than a train into London when you add in getting to/from airports it takes a lot longer.

Things like allowing time for traffic/delays on the way to the airport for example. Also getting through security at both DUB and STN can take time, even with priority pass (more cost). When you land at STN Ryanair slots are always miles from the terminal and normally involve a bus. If they are then travelling by public transport back to London that will take extra time too. I used to leave the office around 4pm and get home around 8.30pm (and I live near the airport

In Ireland do they make allowances for students with dyslexia, dyscalculia, slow processing speeds, other? Or do they just tell the student to work harder?

Yes, this is officially laid out by the RACE scheme. Depending on what the disability is, a student might get larger print questions, scribes, reading pens, use of a quiet room rather than sitting papers in the main hall with everyone else. Just some examples there. It's applied for through the school.

And then there's DARE, which allocates a certain number of college places for those with disabilities. It's an alternative application route. Then in college, you can apply for extra accommodations (think this might be AHEAD).

The Irish system sounds similar to the IB - and certainly sorts the sheep from the goats. I wasn't an all-rounder so neither system would have suited me, A levels were better. I didn't struggle at degree level because I did not have to study sciences or Math at degree level. I can see the advantage of having a more balanced sixth form curriculum and it keeps your options open for degrees, but we need non-STEM students too.

If your daughters are younger, you may not yet know if they are all-rounders or will do better specialising.

As for the high uni fees in England - they won't have to pay them back if they don't live here - and with their EU and Australian citizenships, that seems quite likely.

Also - London is not the UK. The school system in London is not at all reflective of what happens in the rest of the UK/England. I also think an Irish boarding school would be incredibly rarified (as would a UK boarding school) and that would counteract any perceived advantage of the wider curriculum.

I'd be looking for a really good sixth form college that offered A levels and plenty of enrichment opportunities. Or that offers the IB.

Very few people are truly one-dimensional

Seriously, I would not have been able to do STEM subjects for A level. You can force it as much as you like- it won't work. If I'd done the Irish, German or IB system, I would have simply done badly in those subjects and gone to a lesser university, got a lesser degree and got a less good job than I have now because I was able to play to my strengths get three As at A level and go to what is now a RG university.

if you have an all-rounder it is very different. But many people are not.

Also - and I know this is not considered a good thing in the UK and Ireland - but the US liberal arts undergraduate education is a fabulous model. My humanities children still had to take calculus/labs/science/art. My engineering child still had to take art/humanities/music courses

What makes you think this is not considered to be a good thing? There are liberal arts degrees in the UK - and they require high grades eg Exeter wants AAA.

You don't have to do STEM subjects to LC level. Well, aside from Maths as that is core. If you wanted to take Music, Art, French and Religion as your optional 4 subjects no one's stopping you (apart from school timetables). And if you're weak in Maths, you can do what I did and drop to Ordinary level maths while concentrating on your 7th subject instead.