Relocating to Ireland to do Leaving Cert rather than A Levels

[princeofpersian]

I am from Dublin. Primary and secondary school in Dublin. Undergraduate in Dublin. Masters in England. Worked in Dublin for three years before relocating to London. Wife is Australian. Two daughters, two school years apart. Currently coming to end of state primary school in London.

We're debating whether at 16 post-GCSEs it might make more sense for them to move to Ireland and do Irish Leaving Cert rather than stay in London and do A-levels.

Pros of doing Irish Leaving Cert:

• Study 7 subjects rather than 3/4 as for A-level so better for a generalist. Even for someone who has a clear idea what they want it can be good to be able to keep up a modern language as well as doing science subjects. A bit more of a challenge starting university, particularly in engineering/science, as Leaving Certificate level obviously is not as high as A-level.

• Fees at fee-paying school in Dublin are a fraction of independent day schools in London. About 1/3 of the cost.

• Admission to Irish universities is solely on grades (except for a few exceptions such as medicine where there is also an assessment). It's difficult to get admitted to an Irish university with A-levels. Need to take 4 A-levels to get points corresponding to 6 Irish Leaving Cert subjects. General perception that Irish universities want to limit number of undergrad admissions from England because otherwise they would be overwhelmed. Studying for Leaving Cert gives certainty about university entry (subject to getting the grades) with cost of university EUR 3,000 per year compared with £9,250 per year in England.

• Apart from Oxbridge, getting admitted to an English university with an Irish Leaving Cert does not seem to be more difficult. Daughters would have the advantage of having GCSE grades in addition to Irish Leaving Cert which should make them more "standard" from the perspective of English universities.

• Particularly in terms of how Covid handled Irish system seems to work more fairly and be more robust than the English system.

Issues as follows:

• No girls boarding schools in Ireland apart from two in Tipperary (in the same town!) which seem like lovely schools but are nothing exceptional in terms of academics. From people I know who attended the mixed boarding schools in Dublin, e.g. St Andrew's and Wesley, I would not want my children going there. Only girls only boarding option in Dublin is Alexandra College.

• Alternatives to boarding are to attend a day school or Institute of Education two year programme and live in digs. My sister lives on her own in Dublin and is close with my daughters and would be happy to have them, but I think it might be too much for her.

I think I've written more than enough so very happy to get some thoughts.

@titchy put it better than me. Yes I thought by places offered in advance you meant unconditional offers - these are indeed frowned upon and not common. Basically for most dc in UK it is straightforward.

In my experience the only English students I know who had unconditional offers were those who had applied to universities who struggled to get applicants and those who already had passed their A levels.

I know it is different in Scotland, where offers are made based on results already achieved.

I agree that our university application system needs overhauling. This year many students have not being able to get accommodation due to more students achieving their grades, students deferring from last year, and universities over offering in the first place. It is a complete car crash, and I feel sorry for those students who still haven't got accommodation sorted.

People like titchy really are the worst.

"Unconditional offers are very much frowned upon" What an English expression that is! No clarity whatsoever as to what it means. Well, according to this BBC story, 25% of offers are unconditional: www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50234781 In my book that's quite a lot.

The problem with women like titchy who use mansplaining is that they're used to being able to spout any sort of rubbish and not get called out for it, and then when someone does they come out with sexism.

That article is two years old. There has been a lot of negative press about unconditional offers since then. As I said earlier, it tends to be universities who want bums on seats who make unconditional offers pre A level results day.

Birmingham University has got round this by making low offers to prospective students who have high predicted grades, and Nottingham University have withdrawn unconditional offers entirely due to the negative press they received over them.

This is the most recent list I can find of universities who make the most unconditional offers, and even that is two years old.

As far as I know Lancaster and Birmingham (both highly regarded) only make unconditional offers to students with high predicted grades.

RampantIvy: Stop digging. The English university entrance system is a mess. The fact that nobody knows how big a mess it is, that's just another indicator of it being a mess. It's inevitable that people working in English HE on this thread try to gaslight me because truth hurts, but well-educated high-achieving immigrants in England like my wife can recognise that the system is dysfunctional and arbitrary.

I am not doing any more digging than you were . And yes, I know the university application system is a mess, I said so in my post at 12.16.

My daughter applied post A levels as she took a gap year, so her application took a few days from application to offer. Job done.

And I am not in HE. I am just the parent of a student.

Sorry RampantIvy: We are both digging and we both know the system is a mess. Titchy will doubtless post again to gaslight me about this - tell me university fees/loans system is great and English universities are best in world, as if that means that it's worth £27,750 for three years study at University of Huddersfield!

Interestingly, one of DD's peers, who was achieving Ds, Es and Us in 6th form at school got an unconditional offer from the University of Huddersfield.

@RampantIvy. Ha. It seems I know the English university admissions system rather better than titchy would like to think!

No one said unconditional offers don't exist. My dd got an unconditional from Uni of Lincoln - on condition she made it her firm choice. That was three years ago tho and the practice is becoming much less widespread. DS2 with better predicted had Lincoln on his list last year and just got a regular offer conditional on his grades. My anecdote is no more than that of course.

In any case, I don't think anyone planning to apply to English unis need be overly concerned about unconditional offers - assume you won't get one, then it's not an issue, surely? I don't see why the possibility (remote) would put you off applying tbh.

I'm not aware btw of any unconditionals amongst DS2's peers in his sixth form year 13 this summer.

DD took her A levels in 2018, when unconditionals were more prevalent. Conditional unconditional offers were banned last year, until September 2021 @clary.

 @RampantIvy

I’ve namechanged as the background info I’m about to give is hugely outing but I’ve been on MN for years.

I’m Irish, spent part of my childhood in Dublin, part in London and went to primary and secondary in both. Judging by what you’ve said @princeofpersian, I suspect we’re around the same age. My undergraduate and postgraduate degrees are both from Irish universities and I’ve been UK based for most of the last couple of decades. All that’s to say, I understand the context of what you’re talking about, although can’t advise on the contemporary quality of Dublin schools (but I wouldn’t be quite as dismissive of two of them as you appear to be - and I’m an alumna of one of them, and still closely connected. They’re very different to what they were in our day).

What I can comment on is the often subtle, but significant, cultural differences that impact teenagers between the two countries. While your daughters may well feel that Dublin is their second home, the comparison between going to a school on the other side of, or out of, London, doesn’t stand up. I moved to London at the age of 8, back at the age of 14, and was astounded by the difference between visiting, and living, in both directions. The social mores at that age are very important, and starkly different between the two countries. While I am sure the nuances are different today, as I have friends in Dublin with children the same age as mine, I can tell you that difference absolutely persists, and you can’t underestimate the impact that will have. They may be fine and prefer it - I’m one of four and one of us was far happier in Dublin than they’d ever been here - but they may not. With the greatest of respect, you’ve been a bit dismissive of those pointing out this issue, so I thought the perspective of someone who actually lived through it might help.

Not sure what platform you are posting on @titchy, but all I can see is OBJ.

The fact that nobody knows how big a mess it is, that's just another indicator of it being a mess

Apart from you of course

For the record I wholeheartedly disagree with the loans system and agree it's regressive.

And if your daughters are lazy buggers, likely to coast and apply to Uni of Hudd (although it has to be said their Music Tech courses are fabulous) hoping for an unconditional offer so they can watch Netflix rather than revise then you'd probably have a point. But I'm assuming you're the sort of supportive parent aware of relative reputations of universities and the importance of working as hard as you can, so I wouldn't worry about sending them abroad to avoid the temptation of an unconditional offer.

And as I have said conditional unconditional has been banned. (Unconditional cannot be banned btw because they include those that audition or submit portfolios. And of course in the good old days Oxford and Cambridge dished out unconditionals like sweeties.)

Anyway OP if you're convinced of the excellence of Irish universities over their UK counterparts and you can persuade your teens to move there by themselves, and presumably stay for work etc, without the rest of the family then all the best.

@RampantIvy

Not sure what platform you are posting on *@titchy*, but all I can see is OBJ.

Ios app... just grinning at your pm!

Android here

Echoing RosesandBlossoms, you have said it gently, I might not be in the same frame of mind to comment but think long and hard about sending your daughters into a society that has such an appalling record of oppression of women. I am in Ireland right now and one example is the female doctors in the hospital are referred to as Dr. Clodagh, whereas the male doctors (similar age) are referred to as Dr McDonnagh. Mysogny is not dead in Ireland. The Patriarchical influence remains very strong. A relatively recent article in the Irish Times discussed the compensation of victims of church related childhood abuse and valued the impact on women less than the impact on men. Women are worth less than men in Ireland despite all appearances to the contrary.

Most Irish people my age are blind to it. If your wife grew up in Australia, has lived in London and only visited Dublin in the context of family visits, I would strongly encourage her to look long and hard at this decision in that context.

No place is perfect and the topic is vast so I don't want to derail your thread any more than it already has been.

I haven't read through all the posts, but I'm alarmed. Having got two children through exams this year, no one could have forecast what what their exam years would look like when they were leaving primary school. I'm just glad they got through so far in one piece. Maybe I'm a bit more laissez faire in my approach, but I have a rounded experience of state/ private schools (plus an Irish background though not educated in Ireland)I've always tried to gear it towards the individual child.

I am Irish and know nothing about the UK system, but i don't understand why you would spend a fortune on an irish boarding school or digs for that matter and have your teenage daughters living away from home when it doesn't seem necessary. It would be highly unusual for 16 or even 17 year olds in Ireland to live away from home. Very few leave school at 17, vanishingly few, and it's getting less common, with 2 years of free preschool and transition year in many schools now compulsary, many students are closer to 19 entering uni. 16 to 18 year olds need a lot of support, i have adult children and am on my 4th 18 year old, i just don't get it at all.

I have never heard of a doctor being called Dr Clodagh. And I have two daughters with science degrees, stem subjects are massively encouraged.
If you are choosing single sex schools in whatever jurisdiction, make sure they offer a good range of subjects. Near us, girls sometimes have to move fot leaving cert as technical subjects in particular are not available.
But I don't think I would be happy with the plan you have, how does their mum feel?

I think you're overthinking this.

No respectable day secondary school would allow students to live in digs without a parent or guardian present. It’s just inappropriate.

Do any reputable letting agents rent to anyone under 18 these days anyway?

I'm Irish, living in the UK married to an English man with two teenagers who have been educated here. I understand your concerns about A levels … I think its madness selecting 3 subjects at 16 for A level when most kids have no idea what they want to do. I'd much prefer to do leaving cert. I would love my kids to go to Trinity or UCD like my family members however I would NOT send them away for their last two years of school unless we were all going regardless of how independent they were. Also, if you have no plans to return yourselves I don't see the justification. It's not impossible to get into Trinity from the UK, maybe it's harder but weigh up your girls alone in Ireland preparing for Leaving Cert versus living with their parents prepping for A Levels and whatever hoops they have have to jump though here if they want to go abroad. You are every focused on the 'system' and what works educationally but don't overlook the emotional and pastoral side of things.