Relocating to Ireland to do Leaving Cert rather than A Levels

[princeofpersian]

I am from Dublin. Primary and secondary school in Dublin. Undergraduate in Dublin. Masters in England. Worked in Dublin for three years before relocating to London. Wife is Australian. Two daughters, two school years apart. Currently coming to end of state primary school in London.

We're debating whether at 16 post-GCSEs it might make more sense for them to move to Ireland and do Irish Leaving Cert rather than stay in London and do A-levels.

Pros of doing Irish Leaving Cert:

• Study 7 subjects rather than 3/4 as for A-level so better for a generalist. Even for someone who has a clear idea what they want it can be good to be able to keep up a modern language as well as doing science subjects. A bit more of a challenge starting university, particularly in engineering/science, as Leaving Certificate level obviously is not as high as A-level.

• Fees at fee-paying school in Dublin are a fraction of independent day schools in London. About 1/3 of the cost.

• Admission to Irish universities is solely on grades (except for a few exceptions such as medicine where there is also an assessment). It's difficult to get admitted to an Irish university with A-levels. Need to take 4 A-levels to get points corresponding to 6 Irish Leaving Cert subjects. General perception that Irish universities want to limit number of undergrad admissions from England because otherwise they would be overwhelmed. Studying for Leaving Cert gives certainty about university entry (subject to getting the grades) with cost of university EUR 3,000 per year compared with £9,250 per year in England.

• Apart from Oxbridge, getting admitted to an English university with an Irish Leaving Cert does not seem to be more difficult. Daughters would have the advantage of having GCSE grades in addition to Irish Leaving Cert which should make them more "standard" from the perspective of English universities.

• Particularly in terms of how Covid handled Irish system seems to work more fairly and be more robust than the English system.

Issues as follows:

• No girls boarding schools in Ireland apart from two in Tipperary (in the same town!) which seem like lovely schools but are nothing exceptional in terms of academics. From people I know who attended the mixed boarding schools in Dublin, e.g. St Andrew's and Wesley, I would not want my children going there. Only girls only boarding option in Dublin is Alexandra College.

• Alternatives to boarding are to attend a day school or Institute of Education two year programme and live in digs. My sister lives on her own in Dublin and is close with my daughters and would be happy to have them, but I think it might be too much for her.

I think I've written more than enough so very happy to get some thoughts.

I'm not sure that you will even be able to get your DC into a school, if you decide on the one that you want. I know friends who moved abroad for a couple of years and then had huge difficulty when they came back. They had two DC, one in primary and one in Wesley when they left. When they came back they could only get the younger one into Wesley and the older one had to go elsewhere.

Quite a few schools have issues with boarders but it generally tends to be the younger years, everything seems to settle down by the time they're older, mostly because they've kicked out the troublesome ones. So I wouldn't worry about mixed sex boarding schools for 5th and 6th year.

I'm from Dublin (a few minutes' walk from Rathdown) and now live in NI. I share your preference for LC over A Level for all of the reasons you've said.

However, far more important to me would be that my girls be at home with daily input from their parents at that age. I'm sure there are some fabulous bording schools out there, but for me it would only be something I'd consider as a necessity.

"Fees at least you've grasped that they're paid similar to tax, but are you aware the repayment is fixed regardless of loan and interest added?"

Do you know people in their 20s working and paying off UK student loans? I refer you to what I said in my earlier post. It's not so bad if you're never going to be in a job paying more than £30k - then you pay a little and they are written off. However, if you're earning £35-60k then you don't pay them off quickly enough so you keep accruing interest - current interest rate 5.3% per annum and you're paying that per year through an effective 9% increase in income tax rate above the £27k threshold. I suspect that I understand a lot more about the student loan system that you do.

Do you have a vested interest, e.g. work in English HE? I ask because it's a bit weird how you say "UK HE punches significantly above its weight". Between my wife and I we've attended Oxford, York and London South Bank, so we have a pretty good idea ourselves of a range of UK HE. Nobody studies at UK HE, they study at a particular institution and there are very significant differences between them.

You may not believe the league tables but UK HE punches significantly above its weight despite Gavin Williamson You'd be an idiot to ignore that.

Which is why we have so many overseas students. I am in a university Facebook group, and the number of overseas parents on there, even in covid times, is very significant.

And you would be surprised at the number of overseas students who attend less highly regarded universities (ex polys for example)

My point was the it doesn't matter whether interest accrued makes their total loan debt £20k or £220k. They pay the same. After 30 years it stops. Treat it as a tax. It's remarkably similar to the Aus system in all but name.

And yes obviously there are a range of UK unis. But far more have a global reputation than Irish universities. But you've pooh-poohed the source based on a perception of US unis gaming.

For one who is so knowledgable about UK HE it's a shame that knowledge doesn't extend to entry requirements which you've based on a conversation with another ill- informed parent.

"Which is why we have so many overseas students."

No, it's not. The UK has many overseas students because English is a global second language and other English speaking countries, e.g. U.S. have high fees also. There are structural differences with, say, The Netherlands or Spain totally unrelated to teaching standard. (Not that I am praising continental European higher education - in many larger countries such as France and Italy it's a much worse system than UK.)

The UK also has a more open jobs market for those coming from abroad again, because it's English speaking, compared with continental European countries and much higher labour demand.

A lot of parents on the uni FB page have also said that it is because our universities are better than the higher education provision they have at home.

I think you need to be more open minded about your children's future education and not always be that person "who is always right"

"My point was the it doesn't matter whether interest accrued makes their total loan debt £20k or £220k. They pay the same. After 30 years it stops. Treat it as a tax."

A 9% additional tax on earnings above £27k (on top of NI plus income tax) is a lot. It's fine if you're on £75k because you can get the principal of the loan paid off. It's a nightmare if you're on £45k because you're getting stung every year for the >5% interest and not getting the principal paid down. People don't pay the same: someone who earns £30k per annum over 30 years pays a lot less than someone who earns £45k per annum over 30 years. Similarly, someone who earns £75k per annum over 30 years pays a lot less than someone who earns £45k per annum over 30 years. The system is dysfunctional and perverse.

It seems you've made your mind up so I'm not really sure why you've asked for thoughts

It seems you've made your mind up so I'm not really sure why you've asked for thoughts

Are you going to ask your DC when the time comes what they want to do?

"It seems you've made your mind up so I'm not really sure why you've asked for thoughts"

I'm not sure why you've bothered to post this. I've got lots of useful thoughts from lots of people, particularly those with some experience of both Irish and English/NI (i.e. A-levels) secondary school systems. What are not particularly helpful are comments from English people with chips on their shoulder about the idea that people might think their children may be able to get a better/more cost effective education outside of England.

I don't think anyone has shown that they have a chip on their shoulder. I think that is in your imagination.

I admit that I knew nothing about the Irish education system before this thread, and it sounds like it is a good one, but I get every impression that you have already decided what is good for your children without considering other, non academic, implications.

I speak as someone who has gone through the teenage years with DD and experienced the (non academic) issues that they go through. And you need to take this on board as well.

"I speak as someone who has gone through the teenage years with DD and experienced the (non academic) issues that they go through. And you need to take this on board as well."

I completely agree with this. That is something we will have to consider when the time comes. However, there's an irrationality about the way people approach this. It's like letting children go to/from school on their own. My daughters' primary school will only let year 6 go home from school on their own, and then only with written permission. However, when the children go to secondary school in year 7 some of them are trekking for an hour each way across London on their own. It's not rational at all. Similarly, we're fine with sending teenagers off to university at 18 (or 17 in many cases in Ireland - my older sister only turned 17 the August before she started university) but somehow the idea of a 16 year old living separately from their parents Monday through Friday is problematic. I think it all depends on the child to be honest. I just see it much more as shades of grey than as the black and white that some people seem to see, but definitely taking all the comments on board.

You asked for thoughts and that was mine. I don't have a chip on my shoulder and also have experience of both education systems. I just highlighted that you seem to have a set view

My daughters' primary school will only let year 6 go home from school on their own, and then only with written permission

No doubt that is true of your DDs' school and others, but it is certainly not true throughout the UK. My DC went to and from school on their own from the end of year 4 and no letter was required. And most children don't have an hour's trek across London to get to secondary school - because most children in England don't live in London. Plenty walk a few minutes or perhaps up to 30 mins to their local school. They also have other freedoms that are gradually accustoming them to a big break away at 18. if they want. It's a long way IMHO from them being away from home all week.

I am English and I don't believe I have a chip on my shoulder btw. I am just trying to correct some of your preconceptions or incorrect views about what happens in England outside the London private school world. It may not concern you of course as it does not apply, as you are planning to be in that world, but maybe beware of making assumptions.

I meant to say it's a long way from being away from home all week at age 16, sorry that was a crucial element to omit

"I am just trying to correct some of your preconceptions or incorrect views about what happens in England outside the London private school world."

Given that my children currently go to a state primary school, I'm very much not in the London private school world, at least not right now! In my experience, an hour's trek across London is common for many children attending state secondaries - it's not at all an exclusively private school phenomenon. If anything, the independent schools are more likely to have minibus services, etc. Of course, my experience is based on families that I know and that's impacted by being an immigrant and being a Catholic with children at a Catholic primary. Maybe you should ask why you feel this need to "correct" people.

DD went to state primary and secondary school. Her journey to secondary school was a 15 minute bus ride from our village on the school bus to the nearest (excellent) comprehensive school in a rural market town.

This is nothing like your experience.

an hour's trek across London is common for many children attending state secondaries

Yes, in your experience. I am just trying to point out that many many have a different experience. The vast majority of children in England who attend state secondaries do not live in London so they do not have an hour's trek across the city. That's what I was trying to point out. Those of us who don't live in London sometimes get weary of the perception that everyone lives there, that's all.

I don't feel a need to correct people as a rule, but when someone seems to be asking for advice, and has some random basis for their views (such as the view about UK uni admissions, which I am not the only one to dispute on here, and which you seem to have based on one person's opinion) then an opposite PoV may be helpful. Or it may not, in which case feel free to ignore.

"Those of us who don't live in London sometimes get weary of the perception that everyone lives there, that's all."

Yes, but I live in London and was clear on that my OP and was not suggesting any possibility of children going to school anywhere else in England. I'm well aware that things are different elsewhere in England. Telling me that is otiose and very "chip on shoulder"ish.

My view on UK uni admissions is well-founded and a real contrast with the Irish system. I refer you to mathsanxiety's earlier post in which she expressed much better than me the difference. Personal statements, contextual offers, places awarded in advance of A-level grades, unconditional offers, interviews, etc. - all issues.

Places aren't offered in advance of A levels - OFFERS are made subject to achieving grades. Places are offered once results are known. Unconditional offers are very much frowned upon, and 'conditional unconditional' not allowed. Plus the whole system of admissions is possibly going to change by the time your children apply.

But clearly you know best.

and what a great example of mansplaining this thread is

I prefer the Irish system, most of my family and inlaws have been through the UK system, not Scottish though!
I know a few kids who have been boarders, only a few with expat parents who boarded full time.
My husband did an Ireland to England commute for a few weeks at a time, and it's tiring.
But I found Erasmus stressful with 21 year olds!

Ok I apologise, it felt as if you were extrapolating to talk about the UK or even England as a whole, rather than just London. As you were. I had to Google "otiose" - good word.

I'll say again tho, as someone with very recent experience of the UK uni admissions process- personal statements, contextual offers, places awarded in advance of A-level grades, unconditional offers, interviews these do all exist but you should be aware that for the vast majority of students it is about predicted and actual A level grades. Honestly. I don't mind where your dc go, I'm just trying to clarify.