Relocating to Ireland to do Leaving Cert rather than A Levels

[princeofpersian]

I am from Dublin. Primary and secondary school in Dublin. Undergraduate in Dublin. Masters in England. Worked in Dublin for three years before relocating to London. Wife is Australian. Two daughters, two school years apart. Currently coming to end of state primary school in London.

We're debating whether at 16 post-GCSEs it might make more sense for them to move to Ireland and do Irish Leaving Cert rather than stay in London and do A-levels.

Pros of doing Irish Leaving Cert:

• Study 7 subjects rather than 3/4 as for A-level so better for a generalist. Even for someone who has a clear idea what they want it can be good to be able to keep up a modern language as well as doing science subjects. A bit more of a challenge starting university, particularly in engineering/science, as Leaving Certificate level obviously is not as high as A-level.

• Fees at fee-paying school in Dublin are a fraction of independent day schools in London. About 1/3 of the cost.

• Admission to Irish universities is solely on grades (except for a few exceptions such as medicine where there is also an assessment). It's difficult to get admitted to an Irish university with A-levels. Need to take 4 A-levels to get points corresponding to 6 Irish Leaving Cert subjects. General perception that Irish universities want to limit number of undergrad admissions from England because otherwise they would be overwhelmed. Studying for Leaving Cert gives certainty about university entry (subject to getting the grades) with cost of university EUR 3,000 per year compared with £9,250 per year in England.

• Apart from Oxbridge, getting admitted to an English university with an Irish Leaving Cert does not seem to be more difficult. Daughters would have the advantage of having GCSE grades in addition to Irish Leaving Cert which should make them more "standard" from the perspective of English universities.

• Particularly in terms of how Covid handled Irish system seems to work more fairly and be more robust than the English system.

Issues as follows:

• No girls boarding schools in Ireland apart from two in Tipperary (in the same town!) which seem like lovely schools but are nothing exceptional in terms of academics. From people I know who attended the mixed boarding schools in Dublin, e.g. St Andrew's and Wesley, I would not want my children going there. Only girls only boarding option in Dublin is Alexandra College.

• Alternatives to boarding are to attend a day school or Institute of Education two year programme and live in digs. My sister lives on her own in Dublin and is close with my daughters and would be happy to have them, but I think it might be too much for her.

I think I've written more than enough so very happy to get some thoughts.

I went to a London day school and then on to TCD. This was nearly 20 years ago but your comment about needing 4 A-Levels intrigued me as this certainly wasn't the case in my time.

I just checked and you need 456 CAO points to study History which equates to 3 As (not A*s) so, whilst fairly competitive, it's not quite as difficult as you suggest. Obviously other courses will require higher CAO points but I don't think studying A-Levels puts you out of the game. Also, there are plenty of students from NI who attend every year so I don't think this should be a huge concern to be honest.

Aren't UK university admissions for school leavers mostly based on grades?

I agree that MFL teaching in the UK is abysmal. Many students don't even take a foreign language at GCSE let alone at key stage 4. I would have liked DD to take French at GCSE, but the teaching was very poor at her school, so she took Geography instead and achieved an A*. She might have scraped a C in French if she was lucky.

Also, why are you assuming that your DC will want to go to university in Ireland?

Rathdown girls school in Glenageary take boarders and has a good reputation. I think the digs idea is ludicrous, sorry.

A child arriving to Ireland at 14/15/16 will not be expected to study Irish for Leaving Cert.

But, most schools are timetabled to teach students 7 subjects for Leaving Certificate, including Irish. The very small handful of exempt students will not be offered another option regardless of the reason for their exemption. They will likely have to sit in the back of the classroom when Irish is being taught, they can use this time to study other subjects or to pick up some Irish language skills. For 5th year and Leaving Cert, Irish is timetabled at the same time across all LC student timetables, so with 6 homerooms there may be 8 Irish classes timetabled to cater for students at different levels of ability, Higher-level, Ordinary-level and LCVP.

So, straightaway, your DC will likely be limited to 6 subjects in a typical state school. Bear in mind that the best 6 subjects count for points, this could be significant if they have an off-day in one subject. So, it's best to do another subject too. My teen DC have options like Agricultural Science and Japanese available for 5th Year and LC as extra subjects, taught on the school premises outside of school hours but paid for privately. Many students take Music and Music Theory classes at a local music school as an extra subject.

Very few schools offer Arabic except perhaps in Dublin and the one or two Islamic schools in the 26 counties. Classes are usually available in the local mosque (scarce enough still) but you would have to check would these be spoken language and grammar classes only or would they offer sufficient skills to be able to tackle drama/poetry questions which will likely arise on the Leaving Cert paper.

If you are willing to broaden your scope you could look at co-ed boarding schools such as Bandon Grammar and Midleton College, both possibly offer boarding out with a local family as an option. Both a reasonable distance from Cork airport which would have some connectivity with major UK airports.

One of my daughters is in Transition Year this year and will have 6 German students in her year, each is being hosted by a local family. So it is worth approaching a school which looks good on paper to see if they can put you in touch with a local family/agency to arrange this. Maybe you would even consider sending your DC for TY, some schools have exceptional programmes.

It is worth having a look at the Parent Power surveys by The Sunday Times to see what the top feeder schools are. However, take the whole thing with a very large pinch of salt. Results are skewed in favour of private schools (you probably wouldn't send your very average child or SEN child there) gaelcholáiste (you almost certainly wouldn't send a dyslexic or SEN child there, wonderful and all as they are) and geographic proximity of school to universities and technological institutes (yes, your child is more likely to go to a university if there is one in your city). But, if a state school is sending 85% or more of its students to uni/tech then it is doing something right and any student should be in with a good chance of achieving the uni/tech course of choice.

Just to add - Irish would be compulsory at higher/honours level for some University courses - like teaching.

OOPS - it is compulsory Primary school teacher training, not secondary school

@Deadringer

Rathdown girls school in Glenageary take boarders and has a good reputation. I think the digs idea is ludicrous, sorry.

I meant to say Glenageary co. Dublin.

I think you're hugely overthinking this.

I also prefer the Leaving Cert to the A levels, and for the same reason you describe, but (like us) you chose to live here and have children here. And the system here works (kind of... depending on where you live...). It's not like you're living in a country with a truly non-functioning education or one too alien to your own culture to be workable.

I honestly think it would be massively unreasonable to ship them off home to board (at best??) so that you can give them an Irish education when you're not even living there. Shop around for great schools here and do the IB.

"I went to a London day school and then on to TCD. This was nearly 20 years ago but your comment about needing 4 A-Levels intrigued me as this certainly wasn't the case in my time."

It wasn't when I was at TCD (late 1999s). 40% of my class were from NI/GB. However, even at the time there are significant discomfort with how large the cohort from NI/GB was in some subjects. Once fees came back in NI/GB measures re A level equivalence were taken to ensure that the percentage of NI/GB students was limited. Now my degree subject in TCD takes only about 10% NI/GB. To be honest, I think at my time it was too generous to people from NI/GB as when you looked at the grade distribution it was clear that the curve for them settled somewhat lower than those from RoI but it's been a complete about turn the other way. And I can understand it, because wouldn't a lot of NI/GB go to Ireland for uni to pay £3,000 a year rather than EUR 9,000 a year?

I repeat what I said previously re "another country". To my children, Dublin is their second home. They'd find the prospect of going to boarding school in England outside of London much more daunting than the prospect of going to school in Dublin.

Rathdown College is another girls only with full boarding option in Dublin.

OP, you are overthinking this and allowing your children no say in their academic career path.
People choose any number of paths post GCSE and if your kids are bright and given the right parental support they’ll do well in any system.

They could even take a gap year and enrol for multiple exams at the level of “well-educated 18 year old” so IB, Leaving Cert*, A Level or the Australian equivalent. At that point their University options are wide open. And remember that the GB£9000+ fees are usually paid back through taxation, not paid upfront.

• People with bad Leaving Cert grades used to get more points through sitting “The Matric” in my day (TCD 1980s). I suppose it no longer exists. I recall a large number of NI students doing Law at TCD in the 1980s. Their A Level results were weighted differently precisely because they only did 4 subjects. A TCD Gold Star Law Scholar I knew went to an all-girls Catholic boarding school in Bundoran and was very happy there.

I would not send them over to another country by themselves like that. That’s mad.

Move over yourself and they could go to a free school like 99% of Irish children. If you do the sums it might work out the same to do this as paying for them to move into a convent over here, which I think is only mon-fri anyway, what would they do on the weekends?

You could look at European universities as they are much cheaper than the uk and the girls would be adults by then.

Good luck.

Just wait and ask them what they want to do nearer the time.

I also think the €3000 university fee is for Irish people living in Ireland, the fees will be 3 times that amount if you don’t live in Ireland. You would have to check the details of that.

"I also think the €3000 university fee is for Irish people living in Ireland, the fees will be 3 times that amount if you don’t live in Ireland. You would have to check the details of that."

I have checked. Someone living outside of Ireland but in the EU or UK pays the same university fees as someone living in Ireland. The relevant period of time is three years. Irish citizenship is not relevant. ( it may be the same rule for those living in Switzerland, Norway, Iceland but I have not checked for those countries.)

Hi. Try St Columba’s in Rathfarnham. Mixed but small. Does the IB. And has a good reputation

"I would not send them over to another country by themselves like that. That’s mad."

I find this line odd. I'm not sure London to Dublin to live in digs at 16 is that different from Killorglin or Claremorris to Dublin to live in digs at 17 as people with whom I was at university did.

"Move over yourself and they could go to a free school like 99% of Irish children."

7% of Irish children at secondary school attend fee-charging secondary schools. Where I grew up on the southside of Dublin it's certainly greater than 25% at fee-charging secondary schools. I myself went to a free school. I explained in my OP why we would not move as a family to Dublin.

"move into a convent over here, which I think is only mon-fri anyway, what would they do on the weekends?"

They fly to London. We fly to Dublin. They stay with their grandparents (if still alive and in decent health), their aunt or friends of ours.

I can't speak to schools in Ireland, but FWIW my ex is from Dublin and did the Leaving Cert then went to uni in the UK. He thought he'd be way behind, assuming that the A-Levels must be more in depth because E/W/NI students don't do as many subjects. His was an engineering degree and he found he was actually ahead of his UK counterparts in the maths and physics components.

Ha, how is that saving money, flying to London every weekend and paying €8,000 a year in boarding fees.

It’s a cracked idea.

This is going to cost you much more than you would save in cheaper university fees (which could also end up being extremely expensive due to housing pressures,).

You do not want to subject your child to the Leaving Cert. The pressure and the workload are greater than for A level, too great really. They spend the first year of uni recovering. This is the truth.

"Ha, how is that saving money, flying to London every weekend and paying €8,000 a year in boarding fees."

London independent school fees (non-boarding) for A levels = more or less £20k a year

London-Dublin Ryanair flight return bought a couple of months in advance = £60, add travel to/from airport at each end, say £100 return * 30 weekends (and it's not going to be that number of weekends, probably more like 15) = £3,000

However, cost of two years to LC is not the key issue. Real issue is LC better exam than A-levels combined with more clearcut access to university in Ireland, and saving £25k in fees. The fact that English university fees are paid back through taxation does not change the fact that they still need to be paid back. The English university fees system is a disaster: (i) high paying job it's fine, paid off in a few years, not screwed by interest rate; (ii) low paying job, never end up paying much, loan written off after 30 years; (iii) earning £25-50k per annum - totally screwed.

The remember that the GB£9000+ fees are usually paid back through taxation, not paid upfront.

but don't you think girls esp might be vulnerable at that age, away from the care and attention of their parents.
it is totally different to going to university.
and wouldn't it be only one girl at a time, due to the age difference, so they wouldn't even have each other for company and support.
mostly i think MN are over-protective, but in this case i am frankly baffled that you cannot see the problem ?
by the way, for how long did your DC live in ireland; as you say they regard it as home as much as london.

and why do you keep quoting fees for private schools in london.
why not send them to state schools. many excellent ones in london.
i think your reasoning is muddled.

Or an excellent state 6th form college here?

It’s not that out there as an idea, the boarding schools in South Dub seem to have an intake including a fair few children of overseas professionals/Irish abroad. Liz Bonnin developed her Irish accent during her time at whichever Dublin boarding school she went to. I can see why some parents would like their DC to live in their ‘home’ culture for a few years. I have a close friend who boarded in France for a year as a teen.

Given what an international family you are, and the likelihood that your DDs could end up living anywhere I would consider whichever exams gave them best ticket to travel be it LC, IB, A-levels.

I'm not sure London to Dublin to live in digs at 16 is that different from Killorglin or Claremorris to Dublin to live in digs at 17 as people with whom I was at university did

I was with you until that point - it’s sending your DC to a unfamiliar school, with an unknown curriculum, in a different city, in another country. It’s not at all the same. You don’t need me to point out Killorglin isn’t London. Your DDs would be losing access to a lot of opportunities just by living in London.