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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Relocating to Ireland to do Leaving Cert rather than A Levels

170 replies

princeofpersian · 02/09/2021 18:20

I am from Dublin. Primary and secondary school in Dublin. Undergraduate in Dublin. Masters in England. Worked in Dublin for three years before relocating to London. Wife is Australian. Two daughters, two school years apart. Currently coming to end of state primary school in London.

We're debating whether at 16 post-GCSEs it might make more sense for them to move to Ireland and do Irish Leaving Cert rather than stay in London and do A-levels.

Pros of doing Irish Leaving Cert:

  • Study 7 subjects rather than 3/4 as for A-level so better for a generalist. Even for someone who has a clear idea what they want it can be good to be able to keep up a modern language as well as doing science subjects. A bit more of a challenge starting university, particularly in engineering/science, as Leaving Certificate level obviously is not as high as A-level.
  • Fees at fee-paying school in Dublin are a fraction of independent day schools in London. About 1/3 of the cost.
  • Admission to Irish universities is solely on grades (except for a few exceptions such as medicine where there is also an assessment). It's difficult to get admitted to an Irish university with A-levels. Need to take 4 A-levels to get points corresponding to 6 Irish Leaving Cert subjects. General perception that Irish universities want to limit number of undergrad admissions from England because otherwise they would be overwhelmed. Studying for Leaving Cert gives certainty about university entry (subject to getting the grades) with cost of university EUR 3,000 per year compared with £9,250 per year in England.
  • Apart from Oxbridge, getting admitted to an English university with an Irish Leaving Cert does not seem to be more difficult. Daughters would have the advantage of having GCSE grades in addition to Irish Leaving Cert which should make them more "standard" from the perspective of English universities.
  • Particularly in terms of how Covid handled Irish system seems to work more fairly and be more robust than the English system.

Issues as follows:

  • No girls boarding schools in Ireland apart from two in Tipperary (in the same town!) which seem like lovely schools but are nothing exceptional in terms of academics. From people I know who attended the mixed boarding schools in Dublin, e.g. St Andrew's and Wesley, I would not want my children going there. Only girls only boarding option in Dublin is Alexandra College.
  • Alternatives to boarding are to attend a day school or Institute of Education two year programme and live in digs. My sister lives on her own in Dublin and is close with my daughters and would be happy to have them, but I think it might be too much for her.

I think I've written more than enough so very happy to get some thoughts.

OP posts:
MoreCraicPlease · 03/09/2021 00:25

I am the opposite to you in that i prefer the UK A Level system. I met many in Ireland who repeated the Leaving to drag up their (say) French result for a Science degree despite As in Science. It suits the generalist that I was (luckily). But this isn't about me Grin

The advantages of staying close to parents aged 16-18 outweigh the advantages of sitting the Leaving IMO. I'd take my chances with entry at 18.

That said, do look at the global rankings where even Trinity has dropped significantly out of the global top 100. A former lecturer of mine said it's because the fees are so low that investment and student:staff ratios are low.

mathanxiety · 03/09/2021 00:26

I don't think that is really true OP. I imagine you are referring to what are called contextual offers, when high potential students from lower achieving schools are given a lower offer. But this is only by a grade anyway.

@clary - no, in Ireland everyone does the same syllabus for the Leaving Cert, and everyone does the same exam (there are three different levels in some courses and two in others).

Students apply directly to the Central Applications Office for their top ten specific courses. The results of the Leaving Cert are fed into the CAO computer, converted into numerical points, and students are offered places based on order of preference, points achieved, number of other students applying for the same course/their points. It's competitive but impersonal, and fair as far as it goes. There are no interviews, no personal statements, no personal identifiers involved in the application and admissions process.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Applications_Office

MoreCraicPlease · 03/09/2021 00:29

Atlantic College in Wales (boarding) is meant to be good for IB and a pathway to universities across the world.

princeofpersian · 03/09/2021 00:49

"I met many in Ireland who repeated the Leaving to drag up their (say) French result for a Science degree despite As in Science."

I struggle to believe this is the case for a general science degree (as opposed to medicine, pharmacy or veterinary) given the points level for general science degrees over the past 20 years and given that generally people getting As in their best subjects are getting at worst low Bs/high Cs in others.

OP posts:
princeofpersian · 03/09/2021 01:03

"That said, do look at the global rankings where even Trinity has dropped significantly out of the global top 100. A former lecturer of mine said it's because the fees are so low that investment and student:staff ratios are low."

I don't pay much heed to the global rankings. In fact, I think they're positively evil because spending money is a key way to improve ranking which has directly caused higher ed cost inflation and student debt crisis in the US.

The rankings also fail to capture that Irish universities punch above their weight because they operate in their own ecosystem. The THE university rankings rank both RCSI University of Medicine and Health Sciences in Dublin and St George's University of London in the 200-250 category. I pick those because they are specialist medical/health sciences institutions, of which there are not so many, so very comparable, and because I know them well - my sister attended RCSI and St George's is my local hospital in London. There's no doubt in my mind that RCSI is the better institution to attend in terms of giving opportunities to students.

However, the LC is more about giving an opportunity to apply to a university in at least one country on a fair basis, as outlined so well by mathanxiety in their post. LC can also be a basis for getting a place at an English university - not Oxbridge and maybe not so much a couple of other institutions.

OP posts:
SionnachRua · 03/09/2021 01:05

They can sit Arabic as an external candidate afaik so that shouldn't be an issue if they're good in it.

Personally if I were sending them I'd send them for Transition Year too, instead of just the 2 LC years. I think a well run Transition Year can do amazing things for kids and I'd much rather have my kids schooled in Ireland. The boarding schools get a lot of foreign kids coming in from secondary - if not younger - so I don't think they'd particularly stand out among their peers.

SionnachRua · 03/09/2021 01:08

And if your girls take Arabic then that can be their 7th subject and they'll have a 'fallback' option like all students sitting the standard of 7 subjects with their school.

mathanxiety · 03/09/2021 01:13

University rankings favour universities which have learned to play the system. They are not necessarily reflective of the quality of any given university, outside of the top 20 worldwide.

@princeofpersian, I would be very inclined to send your DDs to Ireland for the LC. I would give them time to settle in by doing the TY before launching into the LC. I wouldn't have them live in digs though. If they have an aunt who is willing to take them in, that's what I would do.

Have you looked at Kings Hospital for boarding? I believe it still offers this option, and had approx 300 boarders a couple of years ago.

Many British posters assume that a broad curriculum means a lot of depth is sacrificed, but that's not really so. It's not a case of two different sets of apples, with one set superior to the other, but rather apples and oranges.

British people tend to be seduced by the cult of the brilliant individual; the GCSE->A level->undergrad degree progression, with more and more doors closing at each juncture embodies the belief that a select few can become experts in one narrow field.

There are huge advantages to the broad curriculum on a population level and for individuals. The broad curriculum forces students to work hard outside of their comfort zones, to rise to challenges. Maths people learn to write well, humanists and arts people must also learn science and mathematical reasoning, and everyone has to study a mfl (on top of Irish, except those with a waiver).

All-rounders from Irish schools proceed to Irish universities and sometimes become architects, doctors, teachers, civil servants, engineers, solicitors and barristers in the UK. They do postgrad degrees all over the world.

princeofpersian · 03/09/2021 01:35

Thanks mathsanxiety for the input. Oddly, King's Hospital is the one Irish boarding school whose facilities I have experienced personally, albeit only for a weekend camp when I was 17. I'm sure they have changed a fair bit in 25 years. However, the school itself is not one I'm particularly keen on. In the past five years, there have been a couple of stories about fairly extreme bullying: one where the victim was a 14 year old girl, the other involving 13 year old boy. As I said in my OP we would not send them to a mixed boarding school, which I think rules out all boarding options in Dublin apart from Alexandra College. Alex is a great school. However, without wanting to seem too sectarian, we'd prefer a Catholic school - both sides of our family are Catholic.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 03/09/2021 01:51

Your best bet for quality in education might be the Loreto (day) schools, especially Loreto Stephen's Green.
Other suggestions:
Teresians (Donnybrook)
Muckross Park
Mount Anville
Holy Child Killiney
Holy Faith Clontarf
Santa Sabina

princeofpersian · 03/09/2021 01:58

Yes, I know most of those schools. Loreto on the Green would be the ideal. Also Muckross Park or the Teresian School. Although my mother claims that one year the girls at Muckross burnt down (accidentally) their clockroom "all those gabardine coats up in flames". That could well be 50 years ago now. I don't know well the northside schools, although my cousin went to Holy Faith in Clontarf. I am always told that Manor House is the best girls school in that part of the world. Too far from my family in Dublin in any case. I don't think I could send a child of mine to Killiney or Mount Anville...

OP posts:
CliffsofMohair · 03/09/2021 03:18

@MoreCraicPlease

Atlantic College in Wales (boarding) is meant to be good for IB and a pathway to universities across the world.
Favoured by many of the Royal families of Europe for their teen daughters judging by current intake
Pallisers · 03/09/2021 03:32

Math, would you really have sent your own children to Ireland - or anywhere away from you - for the last 3 years of high school?

I think the Irish secondary system is excellent and think the broad versus depth concept isn't understood by many English people. But none of this would matter to me if it meant my children left my home at age 16 and lived somewhere else for the rest of their secondary schooling.

I have had 3 children go through high school/secondary school and the years between 16-18/the last 3 years of high school were really important to all of us. They needed their parents. We learned more about them and their friends. Making an aunt responsible for this ... wouldn't be for me.

For the OP, I can completely understand your wishes about education but I wanted to put it out there that sending your 16 year old off to finish secondary school in a different country under the care of an aunt or digs ... you are giving something up here that isn't educational but is just as important.

in any case I think you might find all this is moot, OP as it is a decision that will happen when your children finish their GSCEs. They will have an opinon then on where they live and where they go to school and there isn't much you will be able to do about it.

mathanxiety · 03/09/2021 04:56

One of my DDs was seriously considering the state math and science academy, a boarding school, for high school. She decided against it in the end, but the decision was up to her. Her reason to stick with the local high school was the multitude of art options it offered.

I agree that the DDs themselves will have an opinion about all of this at 15/16. It's possible they don't feel particularly attached to the UK, given they have Australian and Irish parents. Otoh, they may be well stuck in to friendships, activities, etc at that point and will be establishing solid British roots for themselves. It would be a pity to even subtly discourage this in favour of faraway green fields. Sometimes a parent's idea of where 'home' is isn't shared by the children. Also, it is really, really hard to get a place in any Dublin secondary school.

On the other hand - I believe I am on my third hand now - after GCSEs your DDs could end up heading to a sixth form college and parting from friends, starting afresh just as if they were experiencing an Irish school.

To the OP - scratch the surface of any school in Dublin and you will find elements to find fault with. There is no perfect school and no way to predict the mischief or the problems which will crop up.The past is not a guarantee of anything, good or bad, even a particularly Catholic ethos. The culture of the school is to a large extent dictated by the sort of parents the students have.

I wouldn't rule out Oxbridge for your DDs regardless of where they finish school. I know of a student who went to Oxford from a rural Irish tech, and my cousins in England, with no English parents and no personal expertise to lean on, ended up in Oxbridge. They attended RC secondary schools in the London area.

However, cost of two years to LC is not the key issue. Real issue is LC better exam than A-levels combined with more clearcut access to university in Ireland, and saving £25k in fees.
That is a big part of the issue, and I agree with the OP wrt university loans. It's the head part of the issue.
The other part is the heart element. "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans" is probably a good phrase to remember. Maybe doing your utmost to be in Dublin a lot for the years your DDs might be in school there would be a good compromise.

I wouldn't discount the IB as a route to university either in Ireland or the UK. It is a bit more complicated to use the IB with the CAO system. IB schools may be a good deal more expensive than fee paying Irish secondary schools too.

MrsMaiselsRedCoat · 03/09/2021 08:16

It has been mentioned by pp, but I think Rathdown school might suit you. All girls, nice ethos, good mix of Irish and foreign pupils. Good facilities and lovely location near the sea.

ChateauMargaux · 03/09/2021 08:17

I am Irish, we moved cities in Ireland when I was 16, I did my leaving Cert in Ireland and then studied Engineering in England.

I hated moving at 15. It was terrible for me. My sister moved too, she repeated 5th year and I did transition year. She was less affected at the time but we both went to university in England when we left school and have never moved back.

I did fine at university, was not behind in Maths especially, I was a bit behind in mechanics and tevhnical drawing but way more capable of the essay subjects plus I also did French. I think the breadth of Irish Leaving Certificate is a good grounding in overall learning and was grateful alongside my IB university colleagues to have knowledge of history and literature than those who had only done maths and science since 16. However, English universities are geared to providing universities education to students who have specialised at A level. I found it restricting and found myself in the language department and the Maths department looking for more.

We now live in France and my children go to an international school in Switzerland doing the IB. It really suits 2 out 3 of my children, I am yet to see how number 3 fares. I do know that it has allowed them a completely different path than if they had been heading for A levels. Who knows how their longer term future looks like as a result. Again, UK university courses are designed for student who have followed A levels.

There is a lot to consider, and to be honest, if you looking at it in this way, the difference between £9k and £27k should not be the deciding factor. There are loads of hidden costs that would need to be taken into account and it is impossible to truly compare.

When I left Ireland age 18 and 1 day, I could never have anticipated a future where I was watching friends being unable to get their children back home from their first term at university abroad when their universities shut their doors. The future is unknown.

Moving at 16 remains the biggest factor in my life and I hated it despite on the surface, looking like the most well adjusted and most robust member of our family.

clary · 03/09/2021 08:50

@mathanxiety I know nothing about the Irish system, I wasn't talking about that. I was trying to clarify the English (Scottish and Welsh) admission system for the op, who seems to think that gaming the system is required - IME, and that of everyone I know, it is not.

The only students I know who gave had interviews are those applying to Oxford or Cambridge. Otherwise it pretty much goes on grades, as I am sure you are aware. Maybe the op doesn't want his DC to go to uni in the UK, in which case this is a moot point.

RampantIvy · 03/09/2021 09:13

It depends on the course. I think nursing has interviews, and so do a lot of other healthcare type degrees.

What happens to students in Ireland who are strong in some areas eg science and maths and poor at humanities? Or students who are great at languages and essay writing but poor at maths? Not everyone is a good all rounder. My friend's DD did well at all of her GCSEs 9s and A* in everything except for maths where she scored a 4.

As the parent of a 21 year old I would say wait and see what the DC are like when they reach their teens. One thing I found is that teenagers need you more in many ways than when they are small. Their emotional needs can be overwhelming, and being a flight away from their parents when they really need you now, can be worrying for both of you.

Also, wait and see how they are academically. If they aren't good all rounders the leaving certificate might not be the best way forward. I know DD wouldn't have done as well if she had taken the IB as she is slightly dyslexic, and her essay work would have let her down. She achieved excellent A level results in her STEM subjects and is currently working at a first at a well regarded university.

BiddyPop · 03/09/2021 09:17

The fire in Loreto on the Green was back in the 80s, early 90s at the latest. Very popular school though, I asked about dd for secondary when she was 3 and the waiting list was already closed for her intake of 12 year olds.

I have heard good and bad things about every school over the years.

DD goes to Rathdown as a catholic and there are many catholics there. The Protestant ethos is not a particularly religious one, but a sense of learning to be nice girls and participating in society and helping others. They have Service three times a year (start of the year, christmas, end of year) in the church a short walk away. But they also do things like each class makes a harvest basket just before midterm (filled with donations to the local foodbank but great bonding and creative activity for the classes and school). They have a House system, where merits for helping others, really good effort in class and results at annual sports day are added for the annual House Cup between the 4 Houses representing the original founding schools that merged many years ago. Facilities are pretty good, including a decent library accessible to all students (not necessarily the norm in Irish schools).

The general ethos is an expectation that the girls will all do their best academically, they are taught about study skills in 1st year and encouraged to do afternoon and/or evening study in school, even as day pupils, early on. So once those expectations are laid out, they focus on other soft skills and extra curriculars, as they are all working on their subjects as a matter of course. There are great extra curriculars that all are encouraged to join - loads of sport, Lego club (building and programming robots), debate, choir, model UN, book club, lots of music and art, the girls themselves run SUCH (the school's charity that raises money for a chosen charity every year through a show involving the whole school and various other events), etc.

There is a wide range of subjects, a few do extra subjects (e.g. a group of my DDs year wanted Italian as an extra language, so a teacher was brought in for a couple of afternoons to do that with those interested).

5th and 6th year boarders are in senior house, which are single rooms like Uni halls, with bed and study desk. They can either study there, or in the Prep hall with the other boarders, (all juniors do communal study, they share mostly 4 to a bedroom in junior boarding house), although any seniors who don't seem to put the effort in alone in their rooms are brought back to the Hall. Evening study for day pupils is in a different hall, but there is still interaction at the break mid-evening.

The cycle is roughly 3 weeks at school, and the 3rd weekend boarders are expected to leave, as well as midterms and holidays. Some leave every weekend (relatively local in Ireland), but there are a number of international students and other Irish who stay in many/all weekends. There are fun activities and outings for boarders at weekends, and they are allowed visit friends locally as well with permission.

Sorry, that was longer than I intended but mainly meant to show that the non-catholic thing is not a rampant indoctrination into Church of Ireland, more a sense of caring for the well-being and rounded growth of the whole person for each student. Despite being a very strong academic school with very good results annually.

In many schools, (I.e. not just Rathdown), there is a study hall where any students not having a timetabled class will go for supervision, to do homework and study in that period. Generally 5th and 6th years have 1 class cycle that they don't have a class per week (2 singles and a double) as many will do 7 but the timetable covers 8 to fit everything and the choices into the week. But this also means that those with an Irish exception have somewhere to go for those periods (4 or 5 singles a week). Or there may be an option, depending on the school, to have another class instead.

RampantIvy · 03/09/2021 09:21

From what I have read about universities in Ireland most students go home for the weekend, so the student culture differs quite a lot from universities here. Is this still the case?

BiddyPop · 03/09/2021 09:22

One other point, doing Transition Year may be a good idea. The year after Junior Cert here (GCSE equivalent). It is a year to do lots of interesting activities but also many schools do a trial of the range of subjects available for Leaving Cert (do each subject for 6-8 weeks) before making choices about what to do. So even if you didn't do art for JC, you might have changed and be more able to express your creativity by mid-teen years and love it, or not have done business for JC but finding the accounting or economics are now really interesting.

So in your case, it might be a good way to get a start on those, as well as getting work experience, learning to drive, doing first aid, having adventures like learning to sail or going on a residential trip to an adventure centre, and all sorts of "useful for life" activities.

princeofpersian · 03/09/2021 09:23

"What happens to students in Ireland who are strong in some areas eg science and maths and poor at humanities? Or students who are great at languages and essay writing but poor at maths? Not everyone is a good all rounder. My friend's DD did well at all of her GCSEs 9s and A* in everything except for maths where she scored a 4."

Generally, people are taking 7 subjects but only 6 count for points for third level entry. So someone who is strong at sciences can take Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Biology in addition to Irish, English and a MFL. Four of their six subjects will be the ones they are strongest in. MFL is half oral/aural (maybe more these days). As one poster noted, the good thing is that the broader curriculum means that students need to work at subjects that they make not find the easiest. This sets them up better for university and beyond. I know a couple of super smart people that did not have to work much in secondary school and really struggled at university - one had to repeat a year - because they were not used to having to work.

OP posts:
princeofpersian · 03/09/2021 09:26

"From what I have read about universities in Ireland most students go home for the weekend, so the student culture differs quite a lot from universities here. Is this still the case?"

At the universities in Dublin at least 50% of students will be living at home with their parents (from Dublin, north Wicklow, Meath, north Kildare). I don't think many English universities are like that - maybe Queen Mary in London but I can't think of any others. NUIGalway is probably the closest to English universities in terms of percentage living away from home. I would also say that Irish universities are more integrated into the local community than English universities are, i.e. less of a "town and gown" divide than in English university towns.

OP posts:
eggandonion · 03/09/2021 09:38

I live in Ireland, I did A levels and I prefer leaving cert. Except the ethos around it, the press coverage is so hyped up.
My kids are in their twenties. Age 15 to 18, there were times when they needed extra tlc. Not for anything massive, just things like wisdom teeth issues, boyfriend issues, exam wobbles. I'm glad they were at home.
Not all universities are in Dublin, tu entrance requirements are often lower.
And hello mathanxiety!

titchy · 03/09/2021 09:45

However, in UK it seems like university entrance has been taken over by social engineering and is getting more and more complex as people game the system. For example, one parent said best to send children to independent school for GCSEs but then put them in a good state sixth form in a not so affluent area, as the university's numbers then look better on state school/geographic admissions but your children still get the benefit of the indie education

You've got some very odd views on UK universities. The above simply isn't true for a start. And as your comment about international league tables - well it's ridiculous, at least in the context of a discussion about European universities.

Fees at least you've grasped that they're paid similar to tax, but are you aware the repayment is fixed regardless of loan and interest added?

It's seems like you're making a lot of plans to avoid problems that don't actually exist, and given these plans involve sending your girls back to live with an aunt or board somewhere (by themselves, not even together) when in all likelihood they won't want to (ever met a 16 year old...?) I'd embrace the system you're in.

You may not believe the league tables but UK HE punches significantly above its weight despite Gavin Williamson You'd be an idiot to ignore that.