DH and I don't agree on secondary school

[WillowSummerSloth]

Our eldest son is in year 5 and we have been considering secondary schools. However we have different preferences and we're not sure how to resolve it. There's no arguing, just a difference of opinion.
I prefer the private school- the curriculum is broad, the sports offered are amazing, the behaviours is great. But there's the huge financial burden as we have 3 kids and we'd definitely have to make cut backs or work more.
DH feels the local secondary school is good enough. They're strict with behaviour although there are still incidents of fighting and the lessons we observed felt like there was low level disruption in some classes. However DH thinks we can supplement their education with tutoring and after school activities.
For context we earm £170k and have £110k in savings specifically for education (gifted by parents for school fees)
Please can anyone advise?? There's no right or wrong I know but I'm chewing this over constantly. I feel the private school would definitely give a better experience but it comes at a cost. Also DH worked so hard for so long and really isn't keen to take on more work. I could work more as currently only do 3.5 days but I also do all the life and child admin which is hefty!

Rather obviously the ones who haven’t sat the 11+ wouldn’t be eligible anyway for the grammar. It may be overcrowded and underfunded but I imagine it will be producing similar (if not higher) results? The class sizes might be smaller in the indie but there won’t be more than 30 in the grammar and personally I would be questioning whether that was really really worth say the £75000 in fees (if you go on the average of £15k yearly). But horses for courses! Yes there is (much like the leap from GCSE to A Level) an inevitable initial leap when it comes to University - I know I felt it when I made it (having gone to a private school which regularly features in the Top Ten Global Independents) as did many of my privately educated friends. You get over the bump and adjust quickly though.

And that’s £75K to GCSE, £105K if they stay on till A Level. I liked my schools but do personally wonder what advantages my education gave me - I’ve stayed in some great houses and gone to some fantastic parties and speak (what my mother would call) ‘nicely’ but career wise, it’s made no difference (and in fact being a bit posh was a negative in some of the environments I’ve worked in). Arguably, I’d have achieved the same academic results elsewhere. But it’s really up the individual parents and there are no rights or wrongs here - at the end of the day we’re all striving to do what’s best!

@titchy, @Rittyrib, @XelaM and @NewElthamMum13, are all right about what they say as far as MOST admissions tutors are concerned. And my stepdaughter is an admissions tutor as well.
I do know what I am talking about and all the things you have said about the personal statement are true, i.e as regards deep interest in the subject matter and reading around the subject, and of course (@titchy) they are strongly mentioned in my book, since it has been mentioned. But I have come across admissions tutors who break the mould you so conveniently put them into.

If RG uni admissions tutors ONLY went by predicted grades why would they ever bother to interview?

@NewElthamMum13 's quote is accurate and is not gainsaid it fact it is supported by what is in the book.

@titchy has it in for me for some personal reason that I cannot fathom. Book written? Yes. Self-published? Yes. but also, asked to write the book by others? Yes?

Has @titchy read my book? Don't think so.

Am I an oik? Definition please?
Does @titchy think oiks should not get into unis like hers? Tell us pray.

Remember, any admissions tutor who gets on here is only working for one uni at a time. I helped hundreds of disadvantaged students get into a wide range of unis many thought it would be impossible for them to get into. I knew my job, better than others and this was recognised. My expertise is not to get ONE type of student into ONE university, it is to help all students trying to get into the best type of university for them and onto the best course for them.

Some posters on this website seem to resent the fact that an ex-teacher and form teacher who wants to help students from disadvantaged backgrounds dares to post here.

I am not posting to parents who already are switched on and don't need help, but more those who are simply reading it who are possibly from disadvantaged backgrounds themsleves and want the best for their children but do not dare to post on here, as this place can resemble a gladiatorial arena. Which it is or can be.

@titchy likes to "tell" me things. Like "read the room" and "don't post until" and "you should". Stuff and nonsense, I have as much to contribute on this forum as others. I don't have your experience but you do not have mine. You may not like my attitude, but that is no need to blacken my character or pooh-pooh my advice or what I have done. As for "Mansplainy" she knows very well as I have told her this before, my mother was a doctor who always earned twice what my father did. My first wife, with whom I continued to work for most of my career and latterly became my boss was a very strong woman, yet she respected my work and gave me top sets that she knew I was better at teaching than she was. My present wife earned far more than I did. When she was working the only housework she did was the washing, I did everything else. So despite what she has stated I am like, she is totally wrong. I respect women enormously whether they be strong or not.

Mansplaining and patronising, are only true if the person you are addressing already knows the answers. I am addressing my remarks to those who do NOT know the answers and come on here to find out, and I do NOT mean just those who post on here.

If personal statements and references did not matter students would not be forced to write them. Which of course IS the case in France.

And as for being physically fit, you do need to be fit to train as a doctor and do the long hours they need to do while training. Also if you are applying to the forces, Sandhurst etc Remember I did say I helped children from ALL walks of life try to get into ALL SORTS of places, not just RG.

Honestly, can some of you bury the hatchet, just because I am male? We are not all domineering shits.

If RG uni admissions tutors ONLY went by predicted grades why would they ever bother to interview?

To work out whether the candidate has a genuine interest in the subject (eg is not lying through their teeth about being fascinated by the Iliad), whether they can think on their feet, respond to intellectual challenge, and argue their corner rather than parroting preprepared answers to questions. The only relevance of 'physical fitness' would be an applicant to a sport science course. Physical fitness as a criterion for entry to medical school?!! Give me strength!

I would agree that grades are not literally the only consideration in admissions decisions. Oxbridge in particular need a way of differentiating between multiple applications with stellar grades. But if you are pushing the idea of being a 'rounded individual' as somehow important, that is categorically nonsense.

This is not arcane or contested information and there is no variation by individual interviewer (all decisions are team-based anyway). As I said above, the criteria for decision-making are very clearly laid out for individual subjects on the relevant department websites. In mine, there is an essay mark, an aptitude test mark, a gcse mark, and an interview mark. No personal statement mark.

Public schools unfortunately on balance do better at teaching the skills that will secure Oxbridge entry. But state schools are catching up, not least thanks to a hugely more transparent system than in past years. Absolutely nobody needs self-proclaimed experts peddling half-baked 'secrets' about Oxbridge entry. You just perpetuate the unfairness you claim to be redressing.

And obviously I am talking Oxbridge here,as they are as far as I know pretty much unique in interviewing nearly all candidates. But all university tutors want people who are keen to learn and interesting to teach. Highlighting macrame or ball-dancing skills just isn't the point of the PS.

Yeah well, the single use of the word "Oik" by @titchy tells us far more than anyone needs to know about certain admissions tutors and their attitudes to those from the disadvantaged classes.

And @Ribbityrib read my book before you criticise it, please. Macrame, ball dancing skills, "well-rounded individual" or anything like that is not mentioned at all.

I am not a "self-proclaimed" expert, my expertise was recognised by others and this is the only reason for the book. I don't peddle "secrets" half-baked or otherwise. there aren't any.

My book is not totally about the application part of getting into top universities, if you even read just the list of contents you would know that. It is far more holistic and takes students through everything they need to do from yr 11 onwards.

Making these comments without having read the book is grossly unfair and not something one would expect from an academic.

And for @titchy to call my ex-students "oiks" is grossly insulting. I think that is the single most snobbish remark I have ever read on MN and some remarks on here are downright insulting. I just hope none of my ex-students ever came up against her.

Sadly this means I have to face a reality: there are admissions tutors out there who would rather not see students from disadvantages enter the portals of their ivory towers. Thank the Lord admissions are "team based anyway".

And what on earth makes you think that I am "perpetuating unfairness" The unfairness is already there, I know it, the government knows it, the DfE knows it. The unfairness is being perpetuated by people who regard some unfortunate young people as "oiks", despite their predicted grades and solid PSs. Thank heavens my students, once well prepared, managed to get past such institutionalised snobbery and ended up on good courses at top universities. If people like yourselves, in positions of some power were more openminded and the system was better, I would never have been asked to write the book as it would not have been necessary. In fact I find it interesting that I am being attacked for writing it, as this means you are attacking other people who do the job that I did.

No one who has read my book told me it was a waste of time, or contained nothing of any use, ALL those who have contacted me told me they found it useful and pointed out particular sections that they felt were of special interest.

I look forward to you actually reading it and then providing me with accurate criticism based on factual analysis, rather than assumption and prejudice. Imagine you are writing a research paper, base it on some actual research.

But then you probably would not be able to as you would not come into contact with the sort of student I used to help and their situations. What may seem commonsense advice that I give is all too often not known about or understood by many families in difficult circumstances.

I wonder if I was helping the homeless to find somewhere to live I would be being attacked in such a manner. It is the same sort of thing , just in a different sphere. But you will doubtless attack this analogy.

Speaking of grossly unfair, you are being likewise. How dare you imply anything at all about how I admitted students? I was the first in my family to go to university and bent over backwards in admissions to give the fairest possible chance to people who, like me, had not the faintest clue as to how to apply to university let alone the ivory towers.

As for reading your book, I think it's perfectly fair to go on the stuff you are posting here. You say 'students personal statement will be bursting with all the stuff RG unis look for: evidence of responsibility, great study skills, individual development, physical fitness' and I'm sorry but this is just bollocks. The idea that any of us give a toss about students' physical fitness is just bizarre, and as for study skills it's fair to say that if someone has a string of 9s at gcse then their study skills speak for themselves. If your book says nothing of the sort, then all to the good, but in that case why are you talking nonsense like that on here? State school kids, especially in deprived areas with little money or access to facilities, need to know that it is the quality of their brain and their enthusiasm we care about, not whether or not their school can provide them with a rowing 8 or a DofE scheme.

Still don't get it do you? READ the BOOK, then you can criticise it!

By the way, rowing 8 in a comprehensive school? What world do you live in? Considering in my school 25% of the students had statements, where do you think we kept the 8, next to the single skulls?

"people who, like me, had not the faintest clue as to how to apply to university let alone the ivory towers." So who helped you then? And are you grateful for their help? That is all I was doing. don't judge a book by its cover or on one or two remarks about it.

I'm just so glad that my obviously misguided advice still managed to help students into Exeter, Warwick, Oxford, Imperial etc, etc etc.

Go on, just keep ignoring the facts if they don't line up with the criticism you want to aim at me.

By the way I am glad you "bent over backwards" in your admissions process to help the less well off. It would seem that much though you seem to hate me, we do or did still have the same aims in mind. at least you do not call them "oiks" . Credt where credit is due.

I think that if decide to go down the private route both parents must be on board and happy to pay the money and without the children feeling pressured to do brilliantly or be at every extra curricular activity . £110k is not going to cover 21 years worth of private secondary so you’ll have to fund a lot out of income when dc 2 and 3 start . If you pressure your husband to go along with it I think you’re at risk of causing resentment and money worries ... sacrifices having to be made, concerns about job security , and whether you’re saving enough for pension.

Read what I wrote! that was exactly my point! Comprehensives in poor areas aren't going to have rowing 8s or indeed necessarily DofE schemes. Admissions tutors have made very deliberate efforts in recent years to make it clear in their admissions literature that getting into a top university does not rely on going to a school where 'personal development' takes priority, probably in the form of expensive extracurricular activities. But keep telling students that sport and activities will get them into uni, and where does that leave the ones that can't manage that because they don't have two pennies to rub together? Because despite what you may think, and like I said, repeatedly, it is students brains and hard work and enthusiasm for learning that will get them onto a top degree course, not irrelevant extracurricular stuff.
No I won't read your book - I'm no longer in the university sector anyway. If you don't want it misrepresented, then don't spout bollocks on here. I didn't even know you'd written a bloody book when I first replied to you! What kind of crazy self-importance leads to someone hectoring others to read their masterpiece before you can judge what they say on here?! Amazing.

And I really don't hate you, I have no idea who you are! I was just replying to what you wrote about fitness and personal development etc being part of getting into a RG uni.

@Ribbityrib, my comments were addressed to both you and @titchy. so I ought maybe to have been more careful to differentiate between which remark was addressed to whom.

Frankly I was so incensed at @titchy's use of the word "oik" about my students I wa typing too fast and shaking with anger. I never intend to be unfair even if someone else is unfair. Sorry.

Some quotes from my book, please pick holes in these.

"Start off with a very clear statement as to why you are applying for the course. This must show real interest, real commitment, and some decent knowledge of the subject.
“I want to earn a ton of money” is not a good reason, on its own; you need to show passion for a subject as well as an interest in a career that follows on from it.
You must have read the course descriptions in the universities’ websites. These will contain the qualities, skills and experiences that it would be a good idea to have before applying.

You need to make very clear what it is that interests you about the subject, and why. "
"You have to tailor what you write to the course for which you are applying. Find out the sort of qualities that are important when doing the job, if you are applying for a vocational course, such as Dentistry. Ensure you have these qualities, ensure you can prove this and put this in."
"Refer in detail to the work placement you have done in this, or a related field. Nothing says you are the right person for the course more than having actually experienced the work."
"You need to mention your ambition(s). Unless you have ambitions beyond the degree, the admissions staff will wonder why you want to do the degree."
"Comment on parts of your studies that you found interesting, in detail, giving clear reasons why you found them interesting. Link them to the course you wish to follow."
"If you are applying to read English Literature then obviously, you are going to mention works you have read and comment on them in some detail. However, do not try to pad out a thin application with boring inanities. They will do more harm than good"

Quotes from chapter 17, so you can see that the book is about far more than just making UCAS applications.

And please remember this is written for students applying to do engineering, or accountancy or other practical subjects as well as more classical subjects.

Indeed if you think I am talking bollocks in any of these let me know, I will modify the content of the book to reflect the more accurate info you give me. I am certainly interested to discover that the "geeky" attraction to grades and nothing else is more widespread than I knew or had been told by other admissions tutors I had had contact with.

Believe me, all I want to do is give students accurate info, but you have to be aware that lots of this info is not that widely available to the general public and there is a lot of contradictory info out there. I wrote based on the experience I had had, my students had had, the positive results of applications and what I gleaned from the admissions tutors I met. And believe me, no two are exactly alike, so it made my job difficult trying to be all things to all admissions tutors.

By the way, it was an admissions tutor to a medicine course who told me the thing about candidates needing to be fit and in good health themselves. You don't believe it, I know. Sorry, but there you go.

And perhaps the most telling quote of all
"The best website is the UCAS one itself. www.ucas.com/ucas/undergraduate/apply-track/writing-personal-statement . It gives you far more accurate info than I have space for."

At the risk of derailing the thread further than it already has, I would be interested to know what area of the country the state secondary MS school with 25% of pupils with a statement is in, Stanley - I presume you mean EHCP now. I ask because on the gov.uk the school with the highest % of EHCPs for 2018/19 is nearly half that %.

Yeah join in@brokenrecord why not? The school I taught in I retired from in 2015. It may have been 25% it may have been 20% but it was high. Amusing that you join in just to try and catch me out in a detail. But the SEND department was massive. See this
"Findings on the placement of young people with an EHCP:
In 2019, the three largest broad types of provision (aggregated up from sub-groups) are as follows:
33.6% are in state-funded special schools
33.2% are in mainstream provision (not in a resource base or SEN unit)
16.2% are in post-16 institutions. Note that the growth in this type of provision reflects the move from learning difficulty assessments to EHCPs for post-16 students" Quote from www.mimeconsulting.co.uk/dfe-data-release-breakdown-ehcps-in-england/
So if 33.2% are in mainstream provision, then this would be my former school which if I quoted 20% or even 25% would be less than average. As Mark Twain said "there are "lies, there are damned lies and there are statistics" Paraphrased for all you OCD types who want to criticise the exact quote.

@Ribbityrib, I note that you still have not come back to tell us all who the person or people were who helped you when you "had not the faintest clue as to how to apply to university"

But I bet you were grateful to them.

By the way, the fact is that there are two chapters on UCAS, the first one 16 out of 22 is on why it is important to make an early UCAS application and the second one, 17 out of 22 is on the actual application itself. The rest of the book is devoted to what a 16/17/18 yr old from a disadvantaged background needs to do to lay the ground-work for what in the end is the culmination of the previous 2 years, or part of yr 11 as that is when first A level choices are made.

So I didn't lay it on with a trowel as that is where the other books start.

I think some of you, admissions tutors in particular, need to think what it is like being a bright and hardworking 16 year old in a very ordinary school in the UK. It often is not a bed of roses. My book is not for those whose parents can afford to send them to private/independent school, or those who manage to get into a grammar school or into a top comprehensive in some leafy Home Counties town or suburb. This book is not for those who go to Holland Park School, those students don't need it.

I do not know @Ribbityrib's background but from what she said it wasn't all milk and honey either although she may well have come from a deeply caring family. But I get the impression she came from the sort of family that I try to help with my book.

Why, why, why am I being slagged off for this? Why am I being slagged off for using my experience and specialist knowledge to help the disadvantaged get into top unis? Do you think this is somehow unfair? Do you think these poor students ("Oiks" as @titchy calls them) have no business getting into top unis? Do you honestly think no one should try and help them overcome the disadvantages they have through no fault of their own? If you think like this then you are cruel people, who believe that the privileged should continue to be privileged, and their offspring too. To the detriment of students who do not have these advantages.

You will note that I have asked a lot of this type of question in this thread. But I have yet to get answers. This says a lot more about other posters on here than anything else. Some of you obviously resent some retired comprehensive school teacher daring to try to help students from less well-off backgrounds get into top unis.

Lord save us in this country.

Wow! Actually Stanley, it was a genuine question. I have no interest in trying to catch anyone out. I have 2 DC with EHCPs in upper KS2, and I am looking at secondary provision. For one of my DS' I am struggling to find something suitable, MS or SS, state or indie. So, I was interested in what area of the country this was in.

The statistics you quote do not state that 33.2% of pupils in MS have EHCPs. They state that of those that have EHCPs 33.2% are in MS.

According to gov.uk, in 2018/19 1.7% of pupils in state MS secondaries have EHCPs.

You may be receiving the responses you are because of how your posts are coming across.

The thread seems to have been a bit derailed, but I started reading it with interest as we are in a similar boat. Similar household income, but two kids rather than three, live in a very mixed part of inner London with historically fairly terrible secondaries, so we always thought we would move out of town a bit for secondary. However our eldest is now in year 5 so this year we did the rounds of some of the secondary open evenings. We saw our ultra local state comp, a comp in a leafier area a mile or so away (we would just about be in catchment) and a faith school in the area we had planned to move to (I am a churchgoer). The faith school really didn't do it for us at all and it would drive atheist DH mad. The leafier comp with playing fields and honours boards etc was all a bit meh, the kids were disinterested and the buildings were shabby. Our local comp - only gets about 45% 5 A-Cs or whatever it is now - really blew us away. Kids were really enthused, we really got the impression they push bright kids hard.

However i do still wish we could look at private. I do worry about all the issues with state education and underfunding etc. DH and I were both privately educated. But DH is really against it morally. He also doesn't like the idea of grammars - we are in catchment for a couple of super selectives, though I'm not totally sure DS would be bright enough.

It's been interesting to read people's comments. Realistically I think DS will be happy at our local comp with all his friends. But I will still yearn for the rugby fields and honours boards... My issues not his.

I don’t imagine that any of us think that aiding State school children from disadvantaged backgrounds is a bad thing Stanley! I imagine Titchys posts were aggravated by the ‘geeky admissions tutors’ remark, the word oik though is not something we should be using in 2019 I would agree. I do find your posts a little erratic though if I’m honest, one minute advocating packing your children off to boarding school if the local State isn’t great and the next being the champion of the poor who’s book isn’t for the likes of children in State schools in leafy suburbs!

Anyway - this has all gone completely off the rails (and apologies @WillowSummerSloth, don’t think my short musing on what private school did for me was at all relevant!). @Wincher, completely get where you are coming from, my DH is of a similar mindset, a definite no for Indies & Grammars and I’ve had a pang or two. I’m sure your DS will do well, at the end of the day a bright child who is happy will succeed! I hope the broader school search is going well @WillowSummerSloth. The whole process is a bit of a fraught horror!

I haven't come back because I've been busy, I find this thread has taken a bit of a surreal turn, my questioning of one posters dubious comment about uni admissions seems to have turned into a slightly bizarre and self-involved defence of their quest to bring succour to poor university applicants.

But if you really want an answer to your question, I was helped by my teachers and I had deeply supportive parents, as is presumably obvious - is there a 'gotcha' here? Back in my day uni admissions to Oxbridge were as transparent as mud. Luckily especially with the internet this is no longer the case. There are things that private schools will always have the edge on through virtue of intake and resources, but hopefully less and less through any sense of their producing candidates whose face fits. The old boys network in Oxbridge colleges isn't quite dead, alas, but it's not in nearly as good a shape as even a few decades ago.

I'm off now!

@10brokengreenbottles, East Dorset, just north of Bournemouth. Creamed comp, creamed by 4 grammars and umpteen indies. Has such a large SEND dept and has such good provision that statemented students from all around came to the school. Still do as far as I know.

I have taught many students with this sort of issue and vividly remember a lovely lad with muscular dystrophy who was top of my A level class and wanted to do French at uni, despite his obvious difficulties with the spoken language. He and his mum went off on a fact-finding mission to France and came back disappointed to find that provision for people with his disability was so poor that he didn't think, even with his mum accompanying him, he could do the year abroad so he did something else.

Do not know where you live but if you tell others on here they will let you know what they think. If you can afford an indie I would have thought that might be your best bet, but I have no experience of this so will comment no further other than to wish you well with your quest.

Sorry you rather got caught in the crossfire there.

@SJane48S, I am a realist. Although my books are written for students from disadvantaged bacgrounds, and their teachers, I am obviously aware that there are parents who have the money to make choices that other cannot. I am no hair shirt, and am not going to castigate anyone who has the money and wishes to spend it on their childrens education.

I do try to "champion the poor" but at the same time if someone with money comes on here and asks advice I will give it. This may seem paradoxical to you, but after all, what would be the point in giving bad advice to someone who can afford to buy proper provision for their children? I try at all times to be even handed.

@Rittyrib, thank you for answering at least one of my questions.

Nothing is obvious. I am extremely glad that you had the kind of support that you had from your teachers. (And parents obviously.) I am curently having a pm conversation with another academic on a thread on another totally different forum who tells me that at his school in the west country "We were of course enmired in a culture of low expectations, with careers teachers who extolled the virtues of working in wet fish shops or if you were really good you could look forward to an apprenticeship as an electrician with a local firm. Or if you were a girl with neat writing, maybe a nurse if you worked very, very hard."

Although things are not quite as bad as this now there are still schools up and down the country where the low expectations of the staff lead to lower successful applications to RG unis than there should be. This is what I am trying to counter. Again, I ask, am I so wrong for trying to do this?

There are many other questions I have posed to you and others in this thread. and I have received no answers. But as I think we all know, no answer in itself is an answer.

A shame as I honestly do think we are all trying to do the best for children. If the response from MN to my books was the only yardstick by which I measured the correctness of my decision to go along with the requests and encouragement to write them, I do not think I would have done.

Just as with parents' evenings, where the parents you really want to talk to never turn up, it would appear that the parents I really need to give the heads up to their children about the book are not going to be on here. But a few have been and some have read it and passed it on and their comments have been favourable.

Sleep tight, and thanks for all the info. Stan.

I’m sorry I haven’t read the whole thread but I wanted to add that I have 2 kids in private school and the number of their friends that still have tutors is huge - so don’t assume that the private school will provide everything you need.

In your position I would try the state school and consider moving for GCSEs if you don’t think it’s working out.

I don't need to be able to afford indie, the LA will pay via the EHCP, especially since the current provision is a very expensive EOTAS package. Under a different name I have previously discussed schools within England for DS1 on the SN boards. That is why I was interested in where you were because it is certainly not something I, or others, have come across before.

There isn't a MS secondary in Dorest or Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole LAs that currently has anywhere near 20 or 25% of their population with EHCPs.

Going back a bit (sorry, can't remember who actually posted it), but the statement, but there won’t be more than 30 in the grammar is not necessarily true. The 30 pupil maximum rule applies only to KS1 and even then, may be overridden by a child or children falling into an 'excepted' category as per the Admissions Code. There is no legal maximum for KS2 upwards. Top set Maths groups for GCSE, for example, are often over 30, even in schools where tutor groups are 30 or under.

Not that having more, or indeed fewer, than than 30 in a class is necessarily of huge relevance.