DH and I don't agree on secondary school

[WillowSummerSloth]

Our eldest son is in year 5 and we have been considering secondary schools. However we have different preferences and we're not sure how to resolve it. There's no arguing, just a difference of opinion.
I prefer the private school- the curriculum is broad, the sports offered are amazing, the behaviours is great. But there's the huge financial burden as we have 3 kids and we'd definitely have to make cut backs or work more.
DH feels the local secondary school is good enough. They're strict with behaviour although there are still incidents of fighting and the lessons we observed felt like there was low level disruption in some classes. However DH thinks we can supplement their education with tutoring and after school activities.
For context we earm £170k and have £110k in savings specifically for education (gifted by parents for school fees)
Please can anyone advise?? There's no right or wrong I know but I'm chewing this over constantly. I feel the private school would definitely give a better experience but it comes at a cost. Also DH worked so hard for so long and really isn't keen to take on more work. I could work more as currently only do 3.5 days but I also do all the life and child admin which is hefty!

With respect, if you work part time but can find the time to go on 'long runs' during the day, you could probably up your work hours to help pay for the private education you want for your DC?

I also don't think that "they can do all the extra-curricular activities" at school is necessarily a plus point of private schools. For a start the range of extra-curricular activities offered is necessarily less than everything a DC might wish to do. Secondly, a huge plus point of extra-curricular activities is that the DC get to meet a different set of people to the ones they spend every day at school with.

@RedskyToNight is talking sense.

RG unis don'tjust look at predicted grades, usually, (though I have come across some geeky admissions tutors who ONLY care about predicted grades. But they are rare.)

Private schools more or less guarantee that the students personal statement will be bursting with all the stuff RG unis look for: evidence of responsibility, great study skills, individual development, physical fitness, etc, etc.

In the state sector it takes particularly switched on form teachers, and/or parents to ensure that their charges are doing all the stuff their peers in the private sector are doing to match them when it comes to application and interview.

You sound like switched on parents so you probably will not have a problem with this if your DCs stay in the state sector but there may be other readers of this thread who do not know where the line of responsibility for the content of the personal statement comes from. Private schools have this in their DNA, state schools can have this but it can be patchy. In the end it is a joint effort and all parties should play their part. I personally was given the elite tutor group (6th form form) as I specialised in this, my public school background having helped me. Which proves that a switched on form teacher can make all the difference and ensure bright state school students get into RG unis. Posting rules forbid me from saying more on this.

I'm no expert in this, but from my own experience, a good personal statement is not one that lists endless extra-curricular activities, but one that is personal to that child and really makes his personality stand out.

I am an expert, and as an admissions tutor it is definitely not just lists of shiny extra-curricular baubles that will get someone admitted to a top university. Extra-curricular engagement does matter but it categorically doesn't need to be fancy - working in the local supermarket counts, and subject-related extra reading and evidence of enthusiasm doesn't need a fancy private school - it could just happen in the local library. Private schools are definitely better at knowing the lie of the land, but you really don't need to spend 100k on access to private school extra-curricular facilities in order to write a storming personal statement.

Incidentally, most admissions tutors are geeky pretty much by definition...

What are the posting rules that are forbidding you to say more? Do you mean keeping confidentiality?

Or is it lay of the land?!

RG unis don'tjust look at predicted grades, usually, (though I have come across some geeky admissions tutors who ONLY care about predicted grades. But they are rare.)

this again Stanley. The vast majority of Admissions tutors at RG ONLY care about predicted grades. The few that are interested in the contents of the PS want evidence of RELEVANT extra curriculars - would-be medics working in a care home, would-be English students reading far wider than the A Level set texts for example.

(Stanley's secrecy is his self-published book on how to get into top universities despite being an oik...)

Ah I see Titchy, a repeat peddler of nonsense. Yes, those pesky geeky admissions tutors, caring more about a prospective history student spending their summer reading about the war of the roses than about their Tibetan llama dressage skills.

More seriously, I do find it depressing how many teachers still believe that lists of random extra-curriculars are a necessity to a good PS, and that Oxbridge college admissions tutors really give a stuff whether or not an applicant will be able to play cricket for the college.

An elevated sense of importance I suspect, and an expert mansplainer

I agree with your husband. Spend the money on educational trips and experiences.

Ah I see Titchy, a repeat peddler of nonsense.

@Ribbityrib you've confused me. Are you agreeing with titchy, Stanley, or neither?

I was agreeing with titchy, sorry reading back I can see the potential for confusion! I was saying, 'I see, Titchy, we are dealing with a repeated peddler of nonsense'

wow.....this is the exact reason that state grammar schools should be means tested!
Parents whom could most likely afford private education by cutting back on lavish lifestyles....taking a place at a school that was ultimately set up to give chances to the children who are financially less fortunate but bright enough to compete with the private sector really irritates me.

Most medical schools don't read the PS. Ever. Not do a lot of vet schools. And the speed of some responses show that a lot of RG Unis don't read for many subjects.

I agree with @Rittyrib, @XelaM and @titchy . Universities are primarily interested in your grades and other stuff is only relevant insofar as you can use it to show that you're a good fit for the course. Here's an extract from a Telegraph article a few years back:
"Sixth formers have long been advised that playing the harp or captaining the school chess team could persuade admissions tutors to award them that elusive university spot. But the suggestion that non-academic pursuits could make any difference to pupils' applications is a myth, according to Mike Nicholson, director of undergraduate admissions at Oxford.

Mr Nicholson said students would be better off devoting more time to their studies than trying to bolster their personal statements through charity work or Duke of Edinburgh awards...Mr Nicholson told the Times Educational Supplement: "It really doesn't matter if you haven't got any friends or hobbies or if you don't do any charitable work ...[Acceptance] is a purely academic judgement."

He said universities were only interested in "enthused, engaged and excellent" candidates, rather than "second-rate historians who happen to play the flute".

Current advice from Oxford is:
"Tutors at Oxford are only interested in your academic ability and potential. They want to see that you are truly committed to the subject or subjects you want to study at university but it’s not enough just to say that you have a passion for something: you need to show tutors how you have engaged with your subject, above and beyond whatever you have studied at school or college. This can include any relevant extra-curricular activities...There’s a myth that Oxford is looking for the most well-rounded applicants, and that you will only be offered a place if you have a long list of varied extra-curricular activities. In fact, extra-curricular activities are only helpful in so far as they demonstrate the selection criteria for your course.

If you are applying to other universities as well as to Oxford (you can make five choices on your UCAS form) then you may need to find out whether the other universities have different selection criteria. If they do, then you might want to provide some information about your extra-curricular interests – but keep it to a minimum. The space in your personal statement is limited, so think carefully about what you want to include.

Do I need experience of work and travel?
We understand that not everyone has the opportunity to do work experience or to go travelling so these activities are not a requirement for any of our courses. Tutors won’t be impressed by your connections, or the stamps in your passport, but they will be impressed by how you’ve engaged with your subject."

I doubt very much that many admissions tutors are bothered about your physical fitness.

@Ineedaholidayplease wow.....this is the exact reason that state grammar schools should be means tested!
Parents whom could most likely afford private education by cutting back on lavish lifestyles....taking a place at a school that was ultimately set up to give chances to the children who are financially less fortunate but bright enough to compete with the private sector really irritates me.

Interesting point. For my last DC I turned down a grammar school place in favour of a selective independent school. I thought the grammar school would offer more academic competition, which would be good, and the DC in question would have been socially equally happy at either, but the independent school did offer more sport and I knew they prioritised pastoral care, and longer holidays which are important for us for visiting overseas relatives. One of the deciding things for me was that I knew I could make that choice, but if we turned down the grammar school place, someone else would be really happy to have it. It was a tough call and I still don't know if I made the right choice. The difficult thing is, the same decision is likely to come up for the younger DC next year. But now there seems to be so much hate directed against people who've been to private school in some quarters and so many misapprehensions about what it actually is like, that youngest will probably go to the grammar school so we don't have to deal with that negativity.

MaryPeary we made the same choice and I have had some similar experiences. In our case we're on a bursary so actually not very wealthy. I have had a combination of negative comments from people who are anti private schools generally, but also some thinly veiled 'what's someone like you doing at a private school?' responses from people who are far wealthier than us but who have gone to grammars. I wouldn't change my decision though.

I think you need to do a cash flow spreadsheet based on all the years between first one starting and last one leaving. Need to include inflation and all the many extras, plus also add in some £££ towards the non-school trips your children may get invited to such as summer hols or winter trips with their pals abroad. Also remember that either of you might get ill or lose your job at some point over those years, particularly if you're working harder to pay for three lots of fees. Might be a useful exercise to try - but then I do love a spreadsheet!

Spreadsheets terrify me! But I suspect you're spot on with that.
I'm intrigued with all the debates about university admissions. I hadn't got that far in my thinking. DH and I both spent extended time at uni so have some experience with admission. My school was definitely of the thinking that everyone needed an instrument, a sport, DofE, relevant work experience and to be captain of the debating team. I was distinctly mediocre in most of those pursuits

There is always some room for extra hobbies on the PS. Often a hard working gifted person does more than just their specialist subject in their spare time. The brightest will have hobbies and they should be allowed to express what these add to them as a candidate. Often work, work and more work isn’t great for mental health. Oxford should consider how students relax! It’s vital in my view.

Oh yes! They do care about those sports blues! If you might represent the college or the university and you are super bright, why wouldn’t you get in?

I think sports is generally valued BY FAR more in the US. That's where universities really care about you representing them and sports bring money to those colleges. Although as far as I know Ivy League universities don't offer sports scholarships either.

"They do care about those sports blues! If you might represent the college or the university and you are super bright, why wouldn’t you get in?"

They really don't! They care about whether you will submit insightful, exciting essays full of original thinking and be a sparky, intellectually engaged person to discuss ideas in tutorials. This is why the admissions process allocates marks for (to take the subject I'm familiar with) your GCSEs, your submitted essay, your aptitude test and your interviews, that will then go into the pot for choosing candidates. Your PS attracts no marks and is merely a source of possible interview discussion. Your aptitude at sport or music may indicate that you strive for excellence and know how to balance your time well - but frankly someone who looks like they are going to spend their time on the rugby pitch rather than the library is more likely to be a negative than a positive, and either way sports ability is exceedingly unlikely to be a deciding factor in whether you get a place.

Academics care primarily about admitting kids who are intellectually able and deeply interested in the subject they want to study. That's it. By and large, they give not a toss about college sports.

Btw I agree of course that kids need outside interests. And someone who shows an interest in a wide range of interesting extracurricular activities is by and large more likely to have an inquiring mind than someone who doesn't. But this really doesn't translate into admitting someone because they happen to be a keen hockey player who might be a college blue, rather than because they, say, categorise beetles in their spare time.

What’s the state school like results wise?

I’m sorry to break it to you but ALL schools will have some level of disruption.

If private wasn’t an option would you be happy with the state school.

If that’s the case I’d be inclined to spend extra on tutors activities as you mentioned.

Will you be able to give all 3 of your children the same opportunity ... at some point they could all be in fee paying schools though the independents may give you a bursary for the following children, if you are prepared to negotiate with them. Remember there are lots of extras at independent schools that are all on top of the fees
and the uniforms which are really expensive, though they may have a second hand shop.

If your child(ren) went to independent, would you continue into sixth form, or would you remove to local state sixth form college? So many independent children, having been spoon fed in small classes are unable to cope at state sixth form and then return to their independent pdq having wasted a year.

Another option, go to the good state school, most children do flourish and gain life schools and consider sixth form in independent so they get those good as poss A levels to enable entrance into one of the top universities.

(For info we took the route of wonderful state primary and secondary schools, though we did look at independents, but were constrained financially at the time, then our daughter went to sixth form at an independent and our son went to the state sixth form ... both at uni and both able to mix and work hard and have fun. Both did a range of sporting and other activities and also we did buy in maths coaching. I sacrificed my career and worked part time and did all the running around and school support etc as partner self emp and 7 days a week.)

Hope useful and good luck and I am sure your children will do marvellously and be grow up to be wonderful human beings due to their lovely parents.