kings college school vs Wilson ( or Tiffin)

[mumhelp07]

Dear Mums,

                  My DS has been offered a place at Wilson school (Top Grammar school) and Kings college school ( Wimbledon-  Top independent school). Travel time to both school is same; feedback from close family friends is both school academically are same. I am aware both schools are excellent. However, there is 50:50 divide. DS not bothered. 

So not sure. I am sure other mums have had same dilemma before.

Thanks

@WombatChocolate agree. KCS spells out every pass on their results pages, rather than shoving it all into a 97.6% A*-7 or what have you. Eg below are the granular gcse results for 2022. https://www.kcs.org.uk/media/8047/igcse-2022.pdf

These kids are given lots of opportunities beyond the classroom, however. Beyond the grades. maybe that’s the thing that has struck me most. My DS is doing GCSEs now and he still gets lots of sport. And the boys have lots of access to lots of other things - amazing art, drama, music. Plus, there is always school support if you need it, whether academic or pastoral. But then, we are paying a lot for this.

I’m conflicted about the system. it’s unfair. If you focus on exam results you see that Tiffins GCSE results are lower, lower even than some of the “easier” indies, even though the Tiffin cohort at 11 would all have been top 3 indie level.

Ps and note it works out at about 11 GCSEs per pupil, so we are talking a lot. We did 9 GCSEs at my grammar school, my sister’s kids are doing 8 at their local school. Having to study for those extra exams of course requires more effort.

KCS DOES Not use ISEB pretest now. It was during Covid.
Now its testing at the school . They just mention pre- tets Specimen paper.

Now its just physical testing at the KCS premises

https://www.kcs.org.uk/admissions/senior-school/11plus

OK so 2 section maths papers now , it doesnt change the point I made, these two schools are selecting very different aspect in terms maths " ability", and QE will require more practicing and preparations.

Order of 11 plus testing has no bearing on the GSCE / A level results on the league table. Also Westminster has more kids going to Oxbridge in many years.
I meant the 11 plus exam difficulty - Westminster / St pauls / KCS

And I presume you are not part of the SW consortium tiger mums and dads who are obsessed with League tables and would not accept anything less than KCS / St Pauls / Westminister. There is also life outside these top 3 schools also. And league tables dont give the entire picture.

if you see A*/A, the difference between KCS and say HABS is 95% vs 85%. My kid could be part of the 85%. Anyways.

https://dlv.tnl-parent-power.gcpp.io/?filterId=the-top-independent-secondary-schools

Also When I asked the KCS head - is the school computing department evolving with the current trends ( AI / Python, General Oops programming), they did not have a clue. I believe it still abit old school.
I am more keen to learn about schools whose curriculum is changing with modern times.

I dont want to argue. Thats your perception. My point is if you have prepared for TIFFINS and QE and WILSON, you can just walk in and write the KCS Maths without blinking an eye lid.

I got a little secret to tell you. I bought into the whole grammar school rumour mill about how advanced children need to be to pass to grammar etc. I thought London was full of geniuses. I didn’t think my child, even though he was brilliant at maths (honestly impressive even at the age of 5), would necessarily get into anything.

Reality check: These kids are 10 and 11 when they take these tests. Start of year 6. Of course the tests look easy to adults who are good at maths or English. Ask your average year 5 to try the tests, how do they fair?

These aren’t PhD students, they are primary school children. Truth is KCS will be looking for very very high scores on maths, expectation of near perfect marks, then giving critical look to English, and then interviewing, and looking at school reports (and CAT scores if they exist). They’ll cream off the kids that score well and that the primary/prep reports already judge to be top of the year. The grammar schools have only the tests to go by, so everything rides on that.

Now that my kid is gcse level maths, I can’t even do one question from his maths book. He’s doing HARD maths. Far harder than the maths I recall from GCSE. But I’m not a mathematician and I was at a girls grammar and don’t recall good maths teaching.

If a kid smart and prepare well they can do any 11+ exam well.

I sadly disagree. Do you have any kids who made it to grammar or independent to feel in our shoes. you have mentioned you dont have kids going through the process. Sutton Grammar . Wallington and Wilson are all in the same area - Sutton / Wallington. 95% of parents would choose Wilson over Sutton. YOu might be in the 5 % who might choose Sutton Grammar over Wilson for unknown reasons to argue your case

Maybe people just like Sutton Grammar school more? . First this school does not have their own sports ground. And its a smaller school. And its poles away from Wilson in terms of quality of teaching and Academics and Music.

Hey @Daisychaisy . You can do Further/ Hards maths in any top school. We are talking about the entry process at year 7 ( 11 plus) . If i had to teach Hard maths to my son, i would refresh myself and do it.

Also i feel the grind / sacrifice / scoldings/ pressure / mixed emotions on failures all the 10/ 11 year kids go though at a young age is commendable and sad at the same time. I did not have to do any of this.

"Do you have any kids who made it to grammar or independent to feel in our shoes."

Yes

"you have mentioned you dont have kids going through the process."

Correct I don't but I have pretty acquaintances and friends attend both Wilson or Sutton schools.

"95% of parents would choose Wilson over Sutton."

Maybe for your sample of league table obsessive parents. It will be more parents chose Wilson over Sutton in general, but won't be 95%. It is similar to what you claim there are 7000 students sit in SET which is not true..

ah, i did acknowledge the fact that the number was wrong, I read that in one of the watts app chats and was surprised myself. But dont quote that as an example to display your ego / Vengeance,

And PLEASE ASK YOUR Dear friends / acquaintances - if all of them gave up WILSON PLACE TO JOIN SUTTON ! . - in other words to make it clear - if they got a pass email from wilson and Sutton by 31st october and they put Sutton grammar intentionally as their first choice on the CAF FORM and wilson as second choice if all said yes, then i have learnt something new today ! your friends are part of the 5 %/10% league

@Lexus1979 i agree. Surely everyone knows that Wilson’s is way harder to get into than Sutton, and Sutton is harder than wallington. This is how the qualifying grades are ranked.

@Lexus1979 yeah, I don’t like the system. Great for kids who pass, distressing potentially for those who don’t. It’s grim.

@Lexus1979 not every parents will put thir first preference in the CAF based on which school are thr most difficult to get in, even they know they score high enough. As some PP point out earlier, even the most selective grammar schools also have a waiting list up to 50th.

Some parents also consider: commute time, the area of the School itself, pastoral care, parents body, intake diversity, STEM or humanities subject, sports interest or a lot of other factors.

These two schools are half hour apart by bus and if you live the other side of Sutton, some will have a natural preference to one school than the other. I have friend who got waiting list from Wilson last year now they are not sure the 70 mins one way bus travel everyday is a good choice. I also knows a friend who pick SGS over
Wilson 2 years ago, because they like the smaller cohort and walking distance from their home.

I'm sure we learnt new things everyday, as other poster pointed out you probably navigated a lot of posts on these schools on elevenplusexams forum and MN already, you will see questions on Wilson vs Sutton as first choice every year..

If you want me to take a guess 5%/10% is probably unlikely, 20%-30% is more realistic.

@Daisychaisy Completely agree with you. System is hard and harsh, Some ways I feel I want my DS to study in the company of bright kids ( hence i support the selective process). But when I see the grind they go through, its painful. Ie even for a "bright" kid, the kid does need to work hard to make the cut to the super selective Grammar or Top indie. And failures leads to friction / arguments or low morale for a period of time and we carry on ! and find the next best option.

Go for the free one, surely.

Direct perception or some random info over what app is one thing, factual, data-based information is more objective.

The thread below shows some details analysis of ranking position between SGS vs Wilson in the past years, the ranking is not directly comparable but it does shed some lights on how the parents and kids put their preferences on Sutton schools.

"Looking at choice of top 200 student ranked in both lists, it also seems that equal number of students choose SGS and Wilsons, which shows that both schools are equally popular amongst top scoring boys. This dispels the myth that Wilsons is most popular school amongst top scorers. "

https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewtopic.php?t=61489

Tutoring really depends upon the standard of your primary. If you child goes to a low attainment state school with high levels of deprivation and they don't cover the curriculum properly because they are dealing with stuff like clothing and feeding children then you really need to tutor - and you may need to tutor 5 x a week. Now if you go to a prep where the child has small classes, good teaching, and brilliant resources and facilities and actually prep for the 11 plus process during school time then hopefully you don't need to tutor.

I would love to know the type of primark school dimsum's child attended?

Having gone through last year's 11+, i can help prospective parents to clarify some of the above points which are not quite correct (only for boys or co-ed):

1. About 3000 sit the sutton grammar exams for boys annually (not 7000 as per above), for about 460 spaces. Because some would go to privates , some to Tiffin, and some to comp (if not getting the grammar he wants), usually, the top 400 will get Wilson's, top 600 will get Sutton Grammar and top 900 will get WCGS.
2. It was never the case that 90 or 95% will choose Wilson as first choice. It might apply to certain ethnic group living close to Wilsons but certainly not all. As someone pointed out above, normally only 50% of top scorers chose Wilson's, The others go to private, Sutton Grammar, Tiffin etc. That said, Wilson has become more selective (in entrance scores) and in the coming years you may need to be in top 300-350 to gain a place, at the expense of an increasing mono-culture in school population (like QE Barnet). the % of year 7 whites has dropped from 15%+ a few years ago to a low single digit in last 2-3 years.
3. Compared to Wilson's and QE, Tiffin is easier to get in and I would not consider it super-selective, in the sense that difficulty in getting in Wilson's and QE is probably in par with the top 3 London Boys school (W, SP, KCS), while Tiffin is not. It is probably equivalent to like Hampton. Those who got Hampton usually also got Tiffin and vice versa, but not for the above 2 grammars and 3 London Boys school.
4. Someone mentioned there is a long "tail" for entry into independent schools. It may be true for some, but certainly not for the top several London independent schools. You can see from their GCSE and A level results that there couldn't have been a long tail at the year 7 entrance point.
5. Both SS grammars and top independents do have a small tail, for different reasons. For top independents, some of the 7+ entrants would falter as maturity at 6-7 sometimes don't translate into good independent learning 10 years later. For SS, some are so over-tutored that inevitable some will lose the momentum in their teenage years. That said, for both, the tail is small.
6. For the math paper, the difficulty last year was SP 2nd stage>>LU>=Tiffin>=Hampton>>King's>>Wilson&Sutton. We didn't sit Westminster (but heard it was easy) or QE. So at least for last year, SP, LU,Tiffin, Hampton were likely to attract strong mathematicians while Westminster, King's and Wilson's were likely to attract those strong in English (all their Math papers were very easy).
7. It is quite impossible to compare the difficulty in getting in the SS grammars and top London grammars, because very few sat for both. In reality, most who got in grammars would never ever consider privates given the financial burden, and most private school parents would never consider grammars as they have the financial resources. Westminster is way too expensive for most propective grammar parents to consider. SP's closest grammar is Tiffin (hardly any will sit for QE and Wilson's) and as said above, Tiffin is easier and I never heard of anyone not getting Tiffin. The more overlap is King's as it is not too far away from Wilson's. Last year, among those I know, everyone who got King's got Wilson's and vice versa.

To be continued

1. So, someone mentioned it is much easier to get into independents than grammar is not true. It depends on which schools you are comparing. The difficulty in getting into W, SP, KCS, Wilson's, QE I believe is very similar. Their exit results (GCSE, A level, University acceptances) are generally in the order of Westminster > SP >=QE >= KCS >Wilson's. So the slight difference in difficulty in getting in should be similar, with some (personal opinion) amendments: Westminster = QE >SP > KCS = Wilson's.

This thread is bonkers. “Never heard of anyone not getting Tiffin”? Really?

@Justarrivedlondon To clarify some points

Point 1 - Agree, out of which only 350 is OOC

On point 2 - I clearly Mentioned if One had to choose between Wilson vs Sutton Grammar, ( not including other Grammars or privates), the Majority would choose Wilson. . Its not comparing Wilson Vs Kings or QE or St Olaves. Its JUST SUTTON SCHOOLS.

What you are mentioning is out of 200 getting wilson, maybe 50% would chose wilson and the rest might choose QE or Private or something else. I am not disputing that.

Point 3-Getting into hampton is proving difficult now adays . . Yes, Hampton maths is hard. Few tough questions on the paper are meant to filter out the top for scholarship purposes. KCS offers Honarary scholarhip which is useless.

If you compare Hamptons Vs Wilsons A% and GSCE results, they are IDENTICAL.

https://dlv.tnl-parent-power.gcpp.io/?filterId=the-top-independent-secondary-schools.

Tiffins is below in the league tables. Not sure on your basis to compare Tiffins to Hamptons ! Their exams are different and their rankings are also different.

POint 7 - I disagree. I saw a good crowd sitting QE / Sutton SET / St olaves / TIffins /Dartford Grammar / Bexley . . If you read the chats,many people are keeping all options open. And many are willing to relocate. I know tiffins has a 10 km catchment.
I am not sure what comes under your top London Grammar schools.

" In reality, most who got in grammars would never ever consider privates given the financial burden, and most private school parents would never consider grammars as they have the financial resources.

On Above there is a section in the middle who consider both. ie kids write both top grammar and top Independent and choose the best outcome ( fees, distance, Quality of education, pastoral care and intangible factors, sports, music, facilities). What I mean is - There is a good section of parents who are willing to stretch themnselves to pay the fees if the Grammar outcome is not great. Daisy in the above post chose KCS over Wilson for different reasons but her DS wrote both, And My DS is also writing both ( Grammar and top indepdents) . We will choose the best outcome depending on DS choice.

"hardly any will sit for QE and Wilson's)" THIS IS WRONG. My son sat for QE and Wilson and so did 5 of my sons class mates / friends. and we did see many familiar faces at both the exams.

@Lexus1979 "On point 2 - I clearly Mentioned if One had to choose between Wilson vs Sutton Grammar, ( not including other Grammars or privates), the Majority would choose Wilson. . Its not comparing Wilson Vs Kings or QE or St Olaves. Its JUST SUTTON SCHOOLS.

What you are mentioning is out of 200 getting wilson, maybe 50% would chose wilson and the rest might choose QE or Private or something else. I am not disputing that."

As @Justarrivedlondon and I pointed out in my PP a thread in elevenplusexams showing evidence that top 200 in the SETs exam will have similar number of people chose Wilson vs Sutton grammar school.

I believe in recent 2 years probably more will pick Wilson so maybe more than 50% But you can't throw a random number like 95% or 90% by ignoring those facts.

The latest GCSE Wilson is higher than Hampton by some margin. Having said that it is a 5 years lagging descriptive statistics. But as PP mentioned Wilson has become more popular among certain demographic so I would expect the gap in this result will remain or widen.

https://www.londonpreprep.com/2023/08/london-gcse-ranking-2023/