kings college school vs Wilson ( or Tiffin)

[mumhelp07]

Dear Mums,

                  My DS has been offered a place at Wilson school (Top Grammar school) and Kings college school ( Wimbledon-  Top independent school). Travel time to both school is same; feedback from close family friends is both school academically are same. I am aware both schools are excellent. However, there is 50:50 divide. DS not bothered. 

So not sure. I am sure other mums have had same dilemma before.

Thanks

Hi there , I wanted to check in on this group how each of you have fared with your respective choices a few years down the line. We are waiting to hear if my DS gets Wilson’s on March 1st, but already have offers from many independent schools including king’s. We live in Wimbledon and king’s is super easy to get to while Wilson’s will be a trek . But we are willing to move if we do pick Wilson’s . We can afford King’s but it will mean many sacrifices . Any words of wisdom or pros /cons from parents who have chosen kings over Wilson’s or vice versa in recent years would be very helpful .

No advise @confusedmommy but following as we are in a similar situation with Tiffin and St Pauls.

following

I can't contribute to recent queries as my son left some time ago. It's just interesting to see that, after all those concerns about KCS going fully co-ed when the thread was started in 2018, it hasn't happened, and exam results are still fine - in fact better than fine - despite the concerns about 11+ arrangements.

Let me add something for future parents. And these are entirely my opinion

Attended the 11 plus forum( open day equivalent today) 9th October

Pros - Good facilities
Sports - One term Students do Rugby or Multi sports ( Swimming, running, Badminton Basket ball)
Another term they do Cricket or Tennis

Year 7 and 8 are taken to another ground in Kingsway (New Malden ) to play sports. I was a bit surprised. Even though they have decent grounds, they are split. Lower school use them i believe

New head - Anne Cotton. Gave a 30 min speech, praising the school.Looking at her Bio, she was previously head of portsmouth Grammar.

My thoughts :-
The head of lower year was also a PE coach. Gibson
They have 2 teaching assistants per class to help children. Thats where part of the extra money you pay goes for
They have around 150 clubs. Its seems overwhelmingly busy. The lower school head stressed they get a long lunch break 1 hour and 35 min. But speaking to students, thats when most of the students spend the time in these extra clubs. They gobble their lunch and spend time playing Squash or music etc.
Their periods are 35 min and they have 8 periods per day.Some subjects are double periods ( not maths ! )

It did seem a bit corporate . They have drama as a period. They focus on Music and drama.

In terms of Language, KCS makes you compulsorily do French at GSCE, You can take additional languages in year 9. I hated the fact that the school ( a PAYING SCHOOL) did not give flexibility to choose languages. My son feels learning spanish would be more benefical to him and wanted to do his GSCE in spanish as opposed to french.

KCS has 5 french lessons a week and the students did find that a bit over whelming. The head Anne cotton completed her degree in classical languages !

When you compare schools like Hampton and St pauls, they offer COMPLETE flexbility in choosing languages. At Hamptons and ST pauls we could choose which language we wanted to do at GSCE. So thats a negative for me for KCS - esp if I am flushing 25K to them which is going to increase every year . Say 30K *7 appexoimately as a base minimum
The school seems very strictly attached to a curriculam ( old school ) .

Location is good as its in wimbledon. Outside 11 plus intake is 60 students, Out of this a small percentage ONLY would have done both Grammar and KCS. Meaning few students would have got offers from Grammar and KCS and would have chosen one or the other. And few students would have chosen KCS having missed the grammar cutoff. 80% atleast of the 60 intakes did not even write grammar schools. Def sons of wealthy or affordable parents.

my take
If you are cash rich - KCS
if you can just afford private school fees - you have KCS and Wilson, then Def Wilson. I dont see the benefit of the 25 k - just to pay for the shiny facilities. At the end of the day, one cares about the peer group, results and quality of teaching. When it comes to A levels, you want your kid to get into a good university. And that is equallly delivered by wilson and kcs

if you do not have the cash and your son missed the Grammar school, then KCS via Bursary

At the forum, the lower head master was subtley bragging about a kid going to japan on an exchange program. The japanese kid lived with this english boy for 10 days. Now he is going to Japan to stay with him. Looked like a penpal exchange.

FINAL THOUGHTS

if you are deciding between Grammar and independent .visit every school open day and let your conscience make a decision. SPeak to as many pupils and parents as possible. In every open day, the private schools will do its best to brag and show case their facilities. I bet none of the boys in independent schools will be able to use ALL the school facilities during school hours, Its after school or weekends. You can pay for that separately if kid is in a grammar school.
Piano lessons cost 37£ for 30 min at kings. And if you do it during school hours, you skip your lesson and do a catch up

Grammar - Wilson / QE/ ST Olaves
indies - KCS / St Pauls / Hampton / Habs / City

Good luck every one

"80% atleast of the 11+ 60 intakes did not even write grammar schools"

Not sure about this I would think the prep school kids, even have fixation on private secondary, will sit SET exam and a good portions of them will get QE or Wilson and didn't take up offer in the end. In terms of entrance difficulty in recent years probably Westminster >=QE > = St Paul's > Wilson >= KCS, for private 11+ is more difficult than 13+ due to the difference in intake population.

I met around 8-10 students from year 7. None of them took any grammar. In fact the guy who took me on a tour took emmanuel, trinity, kew and Alleyns.

If a kid is in Prep school, his parent will mostly put him in private. writing Grammar for practice is a different thing.
The percentage of kids who write QE/ Wilson (and pass them) and Indepedent and take up independent is less. ( choosing between Wilson and KCS if they get both). Cracking Gramamr school is WAY MORE Difficult than an independent school. 6000 kids ( girls and Boys) write SET and 350 boys make the cut ( split between Wilson, Sutton Grammar and Wallington)

to put it in another way, if all the 6000 students writing SET / QE also wrote St pauls, ( No worry on fees :), then it becomes an equal playing field for comparison.
I agree that St pAuls exams are difficult, but if you have cracked QE / Wilson in the top tier, St pauls will be easier to crack.

"6000 kids ( girls and Boys) write SET and 350 boys make the cut ( split between Wilson, Sutton Grammar and Wallington)"

It is 3000 for boys for 460 places across these days schools. Waiting list normally can go up to 600-800 based on SET first round ranking. This is due to a portion who get offers take up private schools especially in SW London.

Exam difficulty does not indicate entrance difficulty. Yes top rank for QE and Wilson students probably can get in St paul's too. But don't forget the former school take 2x as many students as St Paul's (11+ and 13+ combined).

I am only looking at out of catchment. Sutton grammar is 60 places. Wallington 110 and Wilson 180.

and it’s not 50% boys out of 6000. Only 2 girls schools non such and wallington girls. Anyways. This year apparently 7000 wrote.

There is no way of 7000 people (boys and girls) sit this year for SET stage 1 this year no matter how parents claim the number.

FOI reveals that in 2021 the total number of Boys sat for SET 1 is 2700, 2022 and 2023 probably around 3000. And how many of these 3000 boys are out of catchment, for the high ranking boys how many will pick QE or St O or SW London privates? SW London has the highest proportion of students taking private school of this country, it is about 30% vs the national of 9%.

The recent number suggests that last ranking position for Wilson is 400-500 (by September will be even lower), for SGS and Wally boys will be around 700-800, if passed SET 1.

sure, assume 3500 boys sat the exam. Forget the ranking. All i am saying is there is 350 placed for grab out of catchment or 450 places including catchment

Yes rankinggives an indication that the same candidate writes multiple exams - The same high quality candidate can only choose one school. And as stated, passing doesnt mean seuring a place. Passingjust means you have satisfied the requirement for the school.

What i am stating is that there are more People who have got independent schools who have failed to crack grammar schools. But people who wrote both and cracked / passed grammar have also managed to secure many independent school places ( for affordable parents)

If you are well prepared for QE / Wilson/ St olaves ( exams of super selective leagues), writing an independent school exam is MUCH easier. The stuff which is different is Long style written english RC .Creating writing is tested in stage 2 in SET and St olaves.

Cracking an independent school exam is DEF an easier route than getting a place at Wilson / QE/ St Olaves.

3000 boys for SET 1, OOC rank around 800 is possible to get in.

Again depends on which grammar and which indie, I have put my ranking of difficulty in the earlier thread. And Gammar QE>>Wilson or St O.

The very top students will probably get through all grammar or indi. But the mid range and lower range who got through grammar there will still have a range of variability, not necessarily get through some top indies due to intake numbers.

Hello, my son is at KCS, and Lexus’s messages don’t resonate. AT ALL! My child passed to his chosen grammar (Tiffin) and to all the top tier indies he sat for (as did most of his mates, from chatting to parents - there are always kids who don’t pass to this or that, e.g. my mate’s kid passed to Tiffin but failed to get into kings).

The reason why not everyone’s child at kings sat/sits for grammars is purely because their parents are wealthy and want private (rather than because the grammars are harder): they aren’t!

KCS, St Paul’s and Westminster are the three top indie boys’ schools in the UK, and all three are extremely difficult to get into. But so too are the SS grammars (by which I mean schools like Tiffin and Wilson’s). PP is right about the grammar rankings, there are differences, just like the indies differ.

But these three indies are the top three, and they are HARD and super competitive. Don’t kid yourself that someone who fails to a grammar can walk into one or these and get a bursary (that happens, never)… A friend’s child is on a bursary at KCS, but he got both the academic scholarship and the music scholarship, and he’s trilingual, just so you know. super talented, in other words.

But: Do I recommend the indies over the grammars? Can’t say. Be interested to know how grammar school parents are finding things. I see pros and cons to both.

but some personal findings: KCS is very good at staying in touch, and resolving any problems, I feel the school really supports the boys, and it’s an inspiring environment, with some really great teachers and teaching, and my child and his mates are very into their learning, with lots of sports and opportunity too. On the downside, I worry about the bubble of wealth, competitiveness, and i sometimes think standards are so high that it can be discouraging (why bother with, say, music if you’re not a grade 8 cello at age 11?)… it might be an easier and more normal life to chill out a bit and just go to a more regular school (by which I do NOT mean a SS grammar!). But KCS suits my kid, and I think the school is great for bright, quick kids. I’m not like that and I’d have hated it.

Oh and a word about languages at KCS. Everyone takes Latin and French in Y7&8. I didn’t get the Latin thing, when he first joined, but I do now. It’s extremely useful for so many things, and indeed for teaching the rules of grammar. Interestingly, mathsy kids also seem to fly with Latin (& all boys at KCS are good at maths!).

In Y9 they branch out to extra languages: Spanish, German, Mandarin; they can also add Ancient Greek at this point. Further up the school, more languages can (& are) added, including eg Italian. The idea I think is to build a solid pyramid - upon which more and more languages are built. Languages get easier once you make connections between different languages.

Of course there are some kids who sit for super selective state grammars who don’t sit for independents and vice versa. Some families wouldn’t consider independents and even with a hefty bursary couldn’t afford what are still usually several thousand pounds of fees. Others wouldn’t ever consider state schools.

However, lots do sit for both, even if they have a definite preference for one type. Some are hedging their bets or simply using as practice or for the prestige of saying they had offers from X.

When you look at top super selective state and independent schools, of course the standard is high at all of them. The number of applicants per place is certainly higher at the state schools. Quite simply, fees are a major barrier to entry to significant numbers if the population.

At the very top end of those who are admitted, there won’t be very much difference in the students. The very top are the very top. The thing which is different is the bottom end or tail who are admitted. This is where there is a difference. How ‘weak’ are the weakest students in these schools? How far down the rankings do they have to go to fill their places and what kind of standard are those students? This is where you see the difference. And it is this level of the ranking that you see students who have been offered places at the independents but not getting places at the super selective grammars. It’s a number game. Quite simply, because so many apply per place for the state grammars, there are more of the very very top students and less need to take the not-quite-so-top students.

Another thing that makes a difference is how much choice the families in the different sectors have. Those looking at state schools usually only have a very small number if realistic possibilities due to the fact there are few of these schools and geographical distance limits what’s realistically possible. However, families in the independent sector face the choice of very many independents in London especially and often sit for multiple exams. However, they can only attend one…and many places which are offered will be turned down….which schools know and understand they need to over-offer to fill their places, which means going further down the rankings. It isn’t always the top rankings who accept their offers.

There will always be children who get offered a super selective state school place and miss out on St Paul’s or Westminster or KCS. But there are more that get offers at these places and don’t get offers at Tiffin or QE or St O. It is often the case that those with the super selective state school offers also get scholarships from the independents….showing they are amongst the top performers in the independent school entrance exams.

Where children finally go is a different issue. We know that even in the most highly desirable super selective state schools like QE, they need to go down the waiting list to the 40s to finally fill in September. Some of those offered go to independents, often lured in with decent scholarships and sometimes bursaries too. Others realise manage the journey and reluctantly go to state schools nearer home. But those at WaitList position 40 are still top top students. The margins are so small between the candidates, when over 3000 apply. But the independents essentially go further down their lists. If they have 120 places, they will typically offer almost double that amount even if they are top schools. Because they know that a good number who applied will hold offers to equally good independents which are nerarer to home or offer better scholarships, and a good chunk will get state school offers and jump at the free option. So they might have to make 240 offers and actually be taking in quite a number who are ranked near the bottom of this ranking. They essentially go further down what would be a WL for a state school, who cannot initially offer more than the available amount of places.

In the end, the independents at the very top of the tree probably add a little more value. Their results are often just a bit better at GCSE and A Level. The consequence of having 4 or 5 times more funding per head shows itself, but it’s very marginal, because in all of these very top schools most students are getting the top grades at GCSE and A Level. But that’s mostly because they have simply selected the very very top students, more than them doing something magical.

Those in independents in particular, don’t like the idea that the intake is not quite as selective as that of a very few top state schools. People paying huge schools fees don’t like the thought that people paying nothing might be in a stronger cohort. It’s understandable. And in the end, at the top of the state and independent sectors, all of these schools are certainly highly highly selective and hard to get into. Move just one tier down though (and most schools aren’t very top tier) and independents are very quickly taking a much broader range of ability. Yes, the very top is super duper. But again, the tail ir bottom of the entry is where the difference lies, and most schools have a group of students who are significantly weaker than the top end, even if they are still what nationally would be considered strong.

Hi Daisy. I think opinions are going to be varied. i know so many people who did not pass the grammar school ( had bright kids ) and then used the second option to apply to independent schools. Because by 31 st October all grammar school results are out and independent school deadlines are end October and first week November ! And these are middle class parents who can just afford the independent ( in case the grammar was unsuccessful ). These are not very wealthy parents. They don’t satisfy the bursary requirements but will just be able to afford independent school fees making some
sacrifices !!On your point at KCS. I concur with a lot of things. I attended the speech from Anne cotton. It did feel very competitive and corporate. High competiton and a lot of focus on sports and music and drama. I chatted with 7-8 boys. And yes one person with a grade 8 in music alone got scholarship. . I felt the boys were so busy with sports or academics - much more than required for their age .On languages you have stated exactly I have stated . KCS forces kids to take French at GCSE. NO FLEXIBILITY. And they are not willing to change that. Yes in year 9 you can take an additional language ( in addition to French. You cannot drop French ) . Yes kcs is made up of a lot of kids from wealthy parents. Also on your point. You are going to have a small subset of kids writing grammar and independent . In many forums you will read and which I agree ( you disagree ). If a kid has cracked a top grammar like tiffins or Wilson , probability of that kid cracking independent is high !! ( ie even if you exclude kcs and at Paul’s that kid is more likely to get a place in Dulwich or city London or habs or high gate ). Hampton is also hard in the sense they their test is different ( reasoning , creative writing , Rc , ).
also many parents have mentioned. Kids who got St Paul’s did not get KCS AND vice verse. It’s the interview which also has bearing in your admission which is not related to exam preparation ( there is an element of luck when passing interviews ). St Paul’s ISEB has the same exam topics like St olaves. ( nvr and vr ). And St Paul’s second stage maths is harder like tiffins. Sutton and qe maths are a notch easier but time pressured. Every exam is different and cannot be compared apples to apples .if your maths is stronger than English you stand an advantage is tiffins I have heard. ( anyway tiffins is the only too super selective having a 10km inner catchment )

and between KCS ST Paul’s and Westminster the order of difficulty is
westminister / St Paul’s / kcs
the kcs exams are very easy compared to the other 2. No doubt in this. ! Kcs maths paper is a piece of cake once you have practised for qe or tiffins. Sometimes baffles me how they produce astonishing results when the entry exams are easy !! The Teachers
must be doing a brilliant job

"Kcs maths paper is a piece of cake once you have practised for qe or tiffins."

I think these test very different things even for maths. Not comparable in terms of accessing ability at all.

QE tests only one round medium level maths question in MC format but due to the competition those who pass need to have the ability to have speed and accuracy.

KCS use ISEB as pretest, so need to have the right balance not just speed, second round maths is written format, write down work out is important.

I won't argue which one actually test inate maths ability, but I would think QE require substantial more preparation, they pick the best candidates for doing maths public exam but not the best matheticians.

@WombatChocolate Nicely summed up. Agree with you .
Also the valid point you made. Kids who just missed the super selective cut offs. - either they need to be satisfied with another lower ranking grammar school or a top tier independent. Eg. People who don’t make it to QE by a small margin get Latymer grammar. People who don’t make it to Wilson but get Sutton grammar. And it could be because their creativite writing in stage 2 caused their downfall.
yes in the end every parent to their own and chooses what’s best for their kid !
Your post summed up everything

Where are you getting your order of difficulty? Last year, the order for boys schools success was: KCS, St Paul’s, Westminster. This year it’s St Paul’s, KCS, Westminster…

but I suppose it depends whether you are looking at GCSEs, alevels, IB… basically it’s all much of a muchness at that level.

Is the KCS maths a piece of cake? There are two maths papers, I agree that (maybe like part 1 of the grammars) the first paper is quite straight forward, probably testing base abilities, but the second one is very much harder, with tough questions at the end. You probably need to answer all the questions correctly in paper 1, and almost all right in paper 2, to pass! Whereas Tiffin (which my son also passed to) had a humongous maths paper, that went on and on, and he didn’t finish it… not sure anyone ever does! In fact, I think with the grammars, there is no expectation to actually finish these papers. Wish someone had told me that at the time!

Also, you can judge a lot from the English paper, maths isn’t everything! Majority kids at KCS get a 9 in maths GCSE, so the main thing is they are at a certain standard that the maths tests for (just like the top kids can get full marks in their maths SATs in Y6 of primary). The English papers look for the creative spark that not all kids have.

Oh thanks, @PreplexJ sorry I didn’t refresh my page to read what you put. I see the testing format has changed since my son took the test, with ISEB stage one in maths. Well that in itself is open ended then…

If you look at English GCSE results for all these schools, it is here that students are differentiated. Huge numbers get 9 in maths. It’s far less in English.

Those extended writing pieces that indeoendent schools do as part of the entrance exam are pretty important. Increasingly, schools are interested in ability in English - this is where the gains in exam performance and therefore league tables stand to be made.

"People who don’t make it to Wilson but get Sutton grammar. And it could be because their creativite writing in stage 2 caused their downfall."

Maybe people just like Sutton Grammar school more? Some parents like it is easier to commute and more diverse intake profile? I don't think one can make the assumption that some kids don't go to the higher rank school just because they are less able, it is a two way selection process. These schools still have a lot of kids achieve amazing GCSE or A levels results that better than some students in the higher ranking schools in the end.

Perhaps it is a wishful thinking most parents at the top ranking schools had.

It’s true that there are a range of abilities and outcomes in all these schools. In the very top schools, there are kids who achieve less than the majority in the lower performing selective schools and of course, than the top performers in Comps.

When comparing, people focus on the top performers, but perhaps people should look more carefully at ‘the tail’. How many are not achieving the top grades and by what amount? Schools are quick to boast X% at L9/9 or L9-7. Dig a bit deeper - what percentage of the 9-7 are actually 7? Of those that didn’t get 9-7, did the rest get 6 or are there 5,4,3 in there too? All those kids who got the lower grades also passed the entrance exams. They are all someone’s children.