kings college school vs Wilson ( or Tiffin)

[mumhelp07]

Dear Mums,

                  My DS has been offered a place at Wilson school (Top Grammar school) and Kings college school ( Wimbledon-  Top independent school). Travel time to both school is same; feedback from close family friends is both school academically are same. I am aware both schools are excellent. However, there is 50:50 divide. DS not bothered. 

So not sure. I am sure other mums have had same dilemma before.

Thanks

I say the same to everyone who asks these kind of questions, if you have a great state Grammar option, then, unless you are loaded and the £150k fees are really a drop in the ocean, it makes sense to pick it. The Independent option might offer some extras and a different experience, but it's probably not worth £150k if the state alternative is also very very good.
The answer might be different if the state alternative were a rubbish option - but it's not in this case.

Re the tutoring thing - it's widespread for entry to both of these schools. When people can afford fees, perhaps their approach to tutoring and preparation is understandably not as intense - because they know there will be other good options if the very top choice doesn't come off. For many who can't pay fees, the alternative to the state grammar seems very poor and that obviously is a big motivator.

One final thing - many of those who get offers for independents don't get offers from the super selective state grammars, if they sit both. Many also choose not to sit for the state grammars, saying that they don't like the tutoring ethos or very exam focused education of offer. Some do enter, but say that they are only doing it for practice and not prepping for it and wouldn't take it if offered - strikes me as a way of covering yourself for when no offer comes.

I think that it is a simple fact that it is more competitive to get a state grammar place if it superselective. Yes they have often been tutored, but the kids getting independent results have often been tutored too or had years of Prep schooling or both. In most cases, the superselective state grammar will have a less wide range of ability....less of a relative tail.

The independents though, do manage to get some fantastic results out of their wider ability range. So my observation for parents with money, is that if your child is bright but not super bright and likely to make the state superselective cut, they may get an independent school place in a great school and end up with similar results.....so for me, it's those kids who really gain from having the choice that money gives. The kids who are bright but not super bright whose parents cannot pay, might just have to take their chances in the local Comp.

Hi mumhelp,
Hope you have made your decision and whatever it is, I am sure it is for the best! Good luck!

Sanam, I completely agree with you. Unfortunately what swung my decision towards Wilson’s was that we know kids who were tutored up to their eyes, did not even make it to the first stage of grammars but got through to King’s. I know for a fact that two years back, getting into KCS was much harder and I was convinced that their assessment system must be very good at choosing the type of child who would thrive at their school. Not any more unfortunately. The new 11+ system , which has its positives in terms of widening the net, more numbers etc, definitely has changed the way the school has previously functioned. It is perhaps the Head trying something new and it is a wait and watch approach in 3 years to see whether the previous batch of new 11+ intakes still prove to be good as stellar..

Giardiniera
What I meant about their brand image( having lived locally) was how their entrance process was touted to be one of the best in previous years. I know a lot of very bright, non tutored children who wrote the exam and did not get through but got through other ( even better) independent schools. And children tutored with three different tutors sometimes have got in! To me, that rings alarm bells. And also the fact that they are being separate with a different library, different curriculum and different sports team even. It looks like they are appealing to a certain section that loves the prestige the brand name brings and yet the school perhaps wants to take a softer approach to let them settle in. The real challenge will be in Year 9 when the pre school boys join. For me personally, I would not wish for my DC to be part of some experiment process..Again just to reiterate, no taking away that KCS is an excellent school but equally they are trying something new for sure..

Polkapink you must be quite local because there is a lot of talk in the village about damaging the brand. There is a strong belief that the 11+ entry will completely change the feel of the school and there has been a real shift in the way the school is perceived. This has nothing to do with academic results. For example, like most 13+prep parents I have never been inside Wilsons or Tiffin and know nothing about them. Regrets I have about schools are usually about not sending DS boarding because of all the the running him around for sports I have to do. Its a different conversation. DS2 will be boarding from September because it suits his sporting commitments (and me!) but if not KCS would not have been an option. I would not be prepared to have a boy join at 13+ from an external prep with the current entrance arrangements.
KCS is always trying something new. Locally the belief is that the increased 11+ entry is the first step into making it completely co-ed. Older and wiser parents say that the school are making exactly the same denials about this as they did about introducing girls into the 6th form a few years back.

Its often spoken about that the new widened 11+ numbers is an entry point for boys from state schools, but the reality is that a lot of the local/London prep schools finish at 11 and my understanding is that they are moving to KCS at 11 in increasing numbers - these are the boys who would be looking at LU or Hampton in other circumstances.

That is interesting to note about co-ed, cakeisalwaystheanswer . I do not perhaps have the insight that a prep school parent would have about the independent sector but for someone looking to get into the private sector for a very bright, academic child ( even if I say so myself) is so that the child gets a platform to thrive. I am sure kids do thrive at KCS no doubt but the delta I am looking at in my specific case is a free top grammar versus a top independent which is trying a slightly different strategy. My worry is that also with the knowledge of kids being super tutored having got in, isnt that against what KCS have been against: they claim they can smell tutored children from a mile off. Clearly not the case and it is disappointing for me to note that since KCS was very much on my list. Now a top grammar is more appealing: agreed one cannot compare funds and possibilt facilities but the extra curricular at the top grammar is at par with KCS and they even compete together..I appreciate and respect the view that the prep parents have though..perhaps horses for courses.

still wilson,

1 hour to go

Great, us too!

@MrsFantastic

My DS has been offered a place for September and I’m so excited about this. My only concern is the distance as he’ll have to change trains and do a bus journey as we live in Ashtead Surrey. Do the boys come from a large catchment area and us homework volumes distressing in this school?

Secretsquirrel11 - The homework isn't too bad. There is a general policy not to set homework due the next day so that boys can organise themselves around other activities. DS2 has a maths teacher, who does set homework due the next day and my son is outraged about it.

I looked up Ashstead and see that you're 10 miles away from the school. That would be further away than most boys. We live 5 miles away from it and the journey takes 40-60 minutes.

At the induction day the boys put where they live on a big map in order to find boys to travel with in their form. Most boys live in Croydon, Merton, Sutton, Wandsworth. Where would he be changing from the train to the bus?

Hi

Thanks for your reply. My son will be getting off at Wallington Station to catch the bus to school. Waddon station to school by bus could be another option

That's pretty good then if it's mostly by train. The school is about 15 minutes walk from Wallington station and about 20 minutes from walk Waddon. It's bus journeys, which can be really slow, but these are just short bus journeys.

Hi. Thought i'd comment on the Kings thing, although I gather your decision has been made. We've been Kings parents for quite a while. Last son is in the thick of GCSE years. I DO think there have been a lot of changes to the school. The lower school is one but there are quite a few others.

On the plus side, the new facilities are great. There are some good and dedicated teachers. The results -WOW. And oxbridge results seem to be getting better.

But IME the school has changed.

The site itself now has a LOT more students than when DS1 started. And the numbers keep creeping up. Class sizes are bigger (students of 24 in a class in the JS.)

There is less area for the kids to run at break etc due to all the new buildings and the construction.

There have been a LOT of teachers leaving. I know this is common for any school in London but this year brought significantly more that I have ever seen.

Most significantly, I feel that the community spirit of the school has changed. Less pastoral care. Oxbridge obsession. Seems they also ask for money quite a bit.

The Lower school seems to be a great option. Get in at 11. No transfer or common entrance. All inclusive sports and smaller classes. I think a lot of parents were a bit put off because KCS did a LOT of fund raising prior to this announcement. When the announcement was made, it was clear that a significant portion of the funding was going to the Lower School facilities not to help the current JS and SS boys.

Thanks Nickmom. I was also in the same boat as OP and we have chosen Wilson's over KCS. Are you able to throw some light on how the bright kids are pushed: do they make it clear they are academic and is there an unofficial cull at all?

It is too early for me and DH to think about DS being in the Oxbridge brigade. That is in the distant future and while the figures are impressive, it is not the main criterion for us. I am quite local to the area so from what it was three to four years back to now, I feel it has a corporate set of ethos. What also worried me was the number of teachers leaving. That and the completely new 11+ entry with around 40 students. Something tells me there are more changes coming and I would not want my son to be in an experimental cohort. I find Wilson's to be all round too and not an academic hot house. Music is fab and sports especially football, cricket, badminton, chess etc are all sports at which they beat KCS and other indies. Financially too, I was not able to see the delta for which we were paying although we could have paid if we saw enough need to. But it was a tough decision I agree and I cannot wait for my DS to start at Wilson's.

Oxbridge numbers are actually down at Kings, 44 this year with the biggest 6th form ever. It was 59 a couple of years ago. The 6th form has got very big and I think they may be struggling with the numbers applying. The Head of 6th form left at Christmas.

Wow. I didn’t realize they were down so much!!

Cake...how big is the sixth form now. This steady increase of numbers without increasing staff or space really bothers me. Teachers are really stretched. Apparently they added the lower school without adding any staff.

I have counted from the upper 6th contact names list and make 199. It was when the lower 6th joined this year that we were told it is the biggest 6th form combined group ever but I don't know how many are in lower 6th.
They must have added some staff for the lower school. An intake of 44 boys across 2 year groups at £20k a time is about £1.6million a year in extra income. If they didn't that might explain the staff turnover.

I’ve been a Kings parent since the previous headmaster. There’s a lot of things I haven’t liked about the way in which the school has developed, but a couple of things I wanted to say:
Oxbridge. Yes, numbers are down this year. But about 4 times the number of Oxbridge acceptances apply, and about 3 times are qualified to get in. This means twice the number of offered applicants are rejected, and this shows up in the figures. Some years a few more, some a few less and I hope that no-one assumes that for a very intelligent kid, an Oxbridge place is guaranteed. I know of two boys who got 45 in the IB who were not offered by Oxford and Cambridge. I’m sure there will have been more equally deserving boys and girls who have also had this happen. There is, I hate to say, an amount of luck in getting an Oxbridge offer.
Staff changes. Three of the senior team have left in the last year, two to take up headships elsewhere, and one to retire. The retiree will be sorely missed, and IMHO, the other two less so, as being more easily replaced.

However, I still see Kings as a great school, where the individual has a place to develop their learning, where exams are almost peripheral to the process. There are the twin thrusts of needing to get the exam grades to progress to the next stage, but also to develop an interest and understanding of the subject. It still seems possible for the teachers to engage the pupils by going off piste and to develop the intellectual challenges of the subject, which will aid understanding and enjoyment of the subject but is quite useless for the exams. My own view is that’s what education is, and not to be in an exam factory.
The structural changes with the 11+ intake seem to be a bit of a sidestep. My own view again is that especially for boys, a 13+ transfer to senior school is ideal, as it gives them a chance to mature and be a big fish in a small pond, before making the transition. But in the last 10 years or so many senior schools have moved away from the solely 13+ intake, to having an 11+ intake, to secure the fee payers for the duration of the secondary school. It’s why some senior schools have also brought in the 10+ intake to get the boys even earlier.
But Kings, having KCJS, has moved towards the view that the senior school has to give places to kids who will benefit from the education, rather than to have parents who can pay for the rather large fees. So a lot of the recent appeals have been for bursary funds. The 11+ entry has been to enable kids from local state schools, who wouldn’t necessarily have got into KCJS, to get into Kings. Kids were encouraged to apply with heavy bursary support for them. This also helps with the school publicity, and with the Charities Commission, in case there is another tightening in the charitable benefits test. The cynic might also believe that the reason for setting up the 11+ entry was to capture the kids from prep schools who used to go up to 13+, but who had eliminated the 12 and 13 year old year groups caused by parents moving their kids to a private school at 11.

How will it all pan out? I doubt that I’ll ever know, as I suspect that my kids won’t be able to afford to send my future grandkids there.

Interesting viewpoint kcs. Sorry to hijack the thread but wondering what either of you think @ AH and what he wants for the school and his effectiveness as head.

BTW I have to agree with kcs@ some members of staff being more suited to their positions and some not being a loss to the school. Head of UVI is a tough position but crucial for these kids.

The “no additional staff” came from several members of the sports department and one head of an academic department. Told to me in frustration.

Maybe my understanding is wrong, but I thought the increased 11+ intake was accompanied by a corresponding drop in the 13+ intake so that overall the numbers stayed relatively flat? In which case you wouldn’t necessarily expect an increase in staff, driven byvthat change at least.

I wonder if the reduced intake at 13+ may also be what’s driving concern in the village (because fewer prep school boys will get places), rather than the rumours of standards dropping. After all, the first intake of increased 11+ boys are still some way off sitting external exams, so no one can be sure what their standard is like relative to the old intake.

Notagain is right the total proceeding to the senior school is the same but the number coming in from outside at 13+ is less (inside = KCJS plus Lower School).

It’s the same total class size at 13. It’s just that now there are 88 more students in the entire senior school as the lower school kids come @11.

FWIW I would be very surprised if the 11+ cohort had any negative impact on any results. Just my opinion.