kings college school vs Wilson ( or Tiffin)

[mumhelp07]

Dear Mums,

                  My DS has been offered a place at Wilson school (Top Grammar school) and Kings college school ( Wimbledon-  Top independent school). Travel time to both school is same; feedback from close family friends is both school academically are same. I am aware both schools are excellent. However, there is 50:50 divide. DS not bothered. 

So not sure. I am sure other mums have had same dilemma before.

Thanks

Agree with Nickmom - 11+ candidates will be as strong as the ones who might have come in at 13+.

I also think lower Oxbridge numbers may reflect some choosing to go to US and actively picking strong unis for their subjects like Imperial for science.

Interesting thoughts. The co-ed angle seems so obvious now. I know quite a few who turned down KCS for Latymer so maybe that’s a concern. I would worry the school during the transition and I hope we are gone before it happens. For now I just think they are taking too many pupils at all ages and it dilutes the resources all around. This is a real shame as it wasn’t like this with DS1.

When my daughter was a baby 10 years ago the rumour around Kings going co Ed was around - it hasn't happened yet!
What would the motivations be? They have the girls' results in the A level results and the school is flying in the tables.
Parents always have worried about schools and the way things change. I can say that for parents of younger boys the worry is - given the school's massive popularity, will brothers and local boys be able to get into the JS now.
I understood the content of 11+ and pre test were largely the same anyway - it makes no sense to suggest taking boys at 11 is lowering standards as so much selection is done at 11 on basis of pretest anyway.

Giardiniera,
Just to clarify , the 11+ entry for the non JS boys is what I was referring to and it was a common entrance exam paper with no pre tests so perhaps I am missing something here..
I can say though that the boys were interviewed across all levels of staff and some with easy interviews like talking about hobbies etc got through with no problem. Which is all great but it is disappointing too from another perspective since I know that these boys are the ones that have been heavily tutored. You can tell that my opinions are coming from a person who is disappointed with the way KCS has shifted in my eyes from having an excellent assessment system to a very chaotic situation perhaps not knowing where they want to go. I acknowledge though that they will continue to see good results but perhaps not at the levels as before..

I think a lot of the angst about more boys at 11+ and declining standards is really just a bit of snobbery about the fact that more boys from state schools may get in. Amongst my friends with DCs in prep schools they do seem a bit put out that children from state schools can get multiple offers to good schools when their children at prep schools struggle to do so. A smart blazer and selection of badges does not mean that their child is more intelligent- yes, they may have done more Latin and french before the age of 11 and probably more sport etc but generally in a couple of terms all will have evened out. It's all about potential...

It’s interesting that current KCS parents seem to have such little faith in the admissions team, who will presumably have years of experience of interviewing boys and will know how to pick the boys that they think will do well at the school.

There are plenty of excellent boys schools that have always taken the majority of their cohort at 11+ and seem to do just fine. I’m really not understanding the angst.

I agree with previous posters and I don't think the concerns about 11+ entry are anything to do with academic standards. It is pure snobbery because nothing scares the upper middles more than mixing with the lower middles, although strangely there is no problem with the working classes. I don't think there would be any problem at all if the school had instead told parents it was going to select 15-20 very disadvantaged boys who would need 100% bursaries. From a marketing perspective alienating your biggest customer group isn't ideal particularly if your new stratergy is to attract new customers who have free access to the many outstanding state comps and grammars in the area.
I have put 3 DCs through preps and only a very tiny number of DCs are put forward for state school entrance. If you're DC is in a prep you don't even receive reminders from the council or the application paperwork. DCs from preps go on to senior Indys because these are the only schools the parents have visited and know about. It isn't that they think these schools are better than the state alternatives most parents, like us, have never visited any. It is interesting that Kings now has to prove to parents like polka that Kings offers something for £150k that Wilson's doesn't. For 13+ the money doesn't enter the equation because if not spent at Kings it will be spent elsewhere.

It really is hard think how to justify £150k. Not sure what i'd do if I had it all to do over again. DS does a lot of things outside school and has state school friends who seem to be very bright, ambitious, happy and involved at their schools. Some really inspiring teacher stories too.

In my son's year, there is much more concern about the increase in wealthy Kensington and Chelsea parents than anything else but we did not have an 11+ cohort in our year.

It is pure snobbery because nothing scares the upper middles more than mixing with the lower middles Hmmm, I believe quite a lot of London grammar and comprehensive parents are 'uppper middles' themselves, certainly in terms of professional status. Just maybe not rich ones.

And, given that some of the 'feeder' state school pupils - for KCS 11+ entry - will be coming from places like Bishop Gilpin (which is really a prep school in disguise) they have no right to be snobby really, do they?

Reeling - I think you'll find people are a lot snobbier than you think.
And yes I agree about K&C boys, just wait until the 18th birthday season begins - prepare to be gobsmacked!

Cake that's depressing. Glad to be staying in the state sector in that case.

MeetieVon: the angst comes from a parent in whose eyes KCS was THE school for her son. Throw in an admissions policy that is mismatched (for reasons I’ve explained in previous posts), the 150k is not a drop in the ocean and a decision that’s crucial, yes you could say my feelings ranged from frustration to angst but not anymore. I’m happy we’ve chosen Wilson’sbut have to add that I’m not saying a parent who has chosen kcs at 11+ is making a wrong move. It comes down to what works for each family. And I’m horrified that on top of all this I might be in a peer group of snobbish parents!

Well polka lets hope there aren't any at Wilsons. But IME snotty upper-middles short of cash usually pay for prep and then go for grammars. Good Luck!

helloallllll - I agree with you. It's a ridiculous and pretty offensive notion that state school educated children will lower the standards at KCS.

Quite a few of the children I've known, who've moved to private school from state are moved because they can't keep up at the state school and need smaller classes.

Cake, I’m sure they’ll be around but probably in smaller numbers. And it hurts a little less when there’s no fees to pay😄

Helloallll: if anything I find state school children more adaptable since they’re not handed things on a plate as much as prep school kids. I’ll always remain a proud state school mum and think that an intelligent child will make the most of a good school.

I am just messing with you polka you'll be fine. It is a minority of snotty parents at Kings, I would notice it more because I am a big people watcher. I hope it doesn't put anyone off Kings who does want a place for their DS. I am going to make a nice long post about all the positive things about the school in the next few days just for balance.

There are snotty parents everywhere!

All my DC went to state primaries before moving to the independent sector (including KCS) and there were tricky characters in both sectors. To be honest you see so little of parents at secondary that it makes little difference. Whereas at primary it felt a bit intense.

Grammar v independent is a very personal choice and what is right for one family won't necessarily be right for another. We turned down a grammar and I've never regretted it.

We've been incredibly happy with KCS and I would do it again if I had the choice. I'm sure Wilson's is great as well - all our DC are very lucky to have the opportunity of attending these schools.

“In my son's year, there is much more concern about the increase in wealthy Kensington and Chelsea parents than anything else”

OMG: does everyone really sit around discussing this stuff, and getting ‘concerned ‘ and analysing the impact of state school pupils and whether tne entrance exam is rigorous enough to weed out the lower middle classes that upper middle classes can’t mix with, and worrying about the ‘brand’ ? Really?

11 plus entry is not just about widening opportunity for state school entry. There are multiple excellent prep schools that prepare for 11 plus - Prospect House being one just up the road. I think they had several boys who received scholarships last year - boys who previously wouldn't have bothered applying because places at KCS were so limited going into Year 7. They would go for Hampton or Latymer instead.

Parents with both girls and boys tend to go for 11 plus preps. To many families, the Common Entrance system seem cumbersome and pointless - unless you want your child to board. There are very limited options for girls at 13 plus in terms of day schools - you are looking at occasional places. 13 plus preps such as Kings House have the problem of dwindling numbers in Years 8 and 9, as increasingly boys move at 11 plus to get the full senior school experience. 13 plus is a failing business model, these days. I think KCS sees this shift and is adapting.

I don't understand what the genuine issue is here. Is it a worry that the boys who accept KC this year are not the brightest because their parents are choosing Grammar as the 'delta isn't worth it'?

Why are parents worried about how academically rarified their school is? How does this significantly impact the quality of education they receive?

If your child at KC really is naturally bright it won't affect their trajectory. If Oxbridge is their ambition they'll own it and get on with it.

I don't get it either. All this concern about "standards" and "the brand" is just thinly veiled snobbery, surely? At KCS, pupils have always entered at 7+, 8+, even 9+, with no concerns about the impact on academic standards (because these were largely boys from other independent preps). Why the sudden concern about increased 11+ entry, then?

A lot of opinions coming up here. My concern is NOT the 11+ students (who seem like a great cohort) but increasing the size of the school (88 additional students) without increasing any resources. Year group sizes have been inching up as well. I worry (but don’t know for sure) that this is why teachers might be leaving. As a longtime KCS parent, my DS1 had a much more individualized education than DS3 will get. That is NOT to say that there are not some GREAT teachers and opportunities but that paying so much money (which is a sacrifice for us) we are concerned.

Ironically, we loved St Paul’s on sight playing fields and boathouse. The reason we chose KCS was a fear that St Paul’s might be a bit more difficult in terms of snobbery. But who knows.

And I agree totally that naturally bright kids who are motivated and belong at places like Oxbridge will get there.