German expat questions value for money of top English private schools

[Bonsoir]

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I for one don't see the problem with him having made decisions of one kind for his children, then reflecting on them at a later date.

He may have realised the implications of the lack of social diversity as his children got older, but by then they were settled and it was a bit too late to change.

NeedMoreSleep - the Lycee CDG is, remember, a French state school (one for which fees have to be paid). My DC, like a very large minority of Parisian DC, attend/ed private schools - one Catholic, one secular - which are (a) academically selective (b) a lot more nurturing than French state schools. Private schools are all bursting at the seams in Paris, btw - very popular with an awful lot of families - and have long waiting lists.

maybe prep school takes nine years.

And he had four DC attending.

So his experience of that prep school was over a decade!

Who waits a decade to stand back and see if they were happy with what was on offer? Especially when that person has an embarrassment of choice?

Sevenoaks is slightly more understandable. Kids start at year 9 I presume. And they will be in the midst of GCSEs very quickly. So if you're not happy it's harder to move ( though very easy to do for sixth form - and many do).

rabbitstew being part of a thriving capital with all that brings in terms of culture, food, encountering other cultures etc. and jobs and money .

Just in the last few months my DDs have seen James McAvoy in The Ruling Class, Damien Lewis in American Buffolo, James McAvoy in Macbeth, Benedict Cumberbatch reading from letters, Benedict Cumberbatch (nude) in Frankenstein........... like I say culture

Yes. But who knows the point at which he began to change his mind?
We all change over time.

My views on the educational choices I would make for children are certainly very different to what they were over a decade ago.

Shegot But he doesn't actually say he regrets the decision, in fact he sets out the reasons, to get the best education in the context of a British cultural identity, and does not say that their education, or Sevenoaks, fell short in terms of what they chose it for. However with hindsight he is saying what his experience has been compared with the brand that British private education has in Germany, and what he regrets it wasn't in terms of diversity and superiority to the education he had. I can empathise with that, I wouldn't change the decisions we made (apart from putting one of my DDs into a particularly dysfunctional cohort) but I can still compare it to my education and find it wanting in terms of the education I had and the social diversity Of my peers at school. Though far superior in terms of building confidence and supporting my DDs academic ambitions. It isn't all black and white.

a thriving capital with all that brings in terms of ... encountering other cultures etc.

Ha! I wondered if someone would trot that out. H Holle seems to have issues with that sentiment!

Needmoresleep: Thanks also for your response. Our DD, who attended an ultra-relaxed primary school (no tests, proceed at your own pace, mixed ability, etc), has also drifted into a "name school" with her teacher's full blessing because she feels it provides the best learning environment for DD. We hope our DD will have the same positive experience as your DS in a similarly academic environment.

SheGot Sevenoaks has a year 7 intake as well.

But Poisonwoodlife - my dcs have access to London's culture and food on day trips. What would they gain from actually living there, if their education were segregated from a lot of the reality of London life, anyway? Is it really just the jobs and money? (Which seems a shame, given that the money is all apparently swallowed up by the colossal expense and stress of living in the capital).

rabbit I think if you make a concerted effort to make the most of what London offers, then it is unrivalled in terms of culture.

However, many do not do this. Which means the get all the balls-ache of living there, without the compensation. Madness!

When we decided to move back to London for part of the time (we split between London and country) we made a pact to make the most of it. So our visits to lectures/theatre/music peformances etc etc are a very usual part of our lives.

And of course it does open up a whole world of work and money.

Rabbit, oddly a diversity which includes the children of high achieving international expats is not all bad. Staying in the centre was slightly accidental and left us with few alternatives to private. (They did not get into Grammars, we don't have enough religion and our catchment school takes a fairly troubled demographic and though it does well by them is not really up to pushing the more able.) I don't think we expected London education to be as competitive as it was, but DC have sailed through, had some wonderful teachers and have enjoyed their education. I hope they are turning into nice, giving, young adults. The exposure to other aspirations has probably helped cement what they don't want from life, but has helped their own confidence.

I think DS was five when I first had my ear bent by a mother telling me how brilliant her son was. I later commented to DS that Tom must be very clever. Not at all, apparently. DD is now surprised at how many of her peer group expect to go to Oxbridge or a top US University. She has decided she does not want to tackle the hoops. However it does her no harm to know she is as good as those who think the world belongs to them, and to feel confident in aiming high. Plus knowing that if she wants to aim high she needs to work hard. They have both also worked out that incessent competitiveness is draining and life is more than collecting the honours. (FWIW both DH and I are public sector and both DC will probably be as well. Banking does not seem to appeal, even for the would be economist.)

There are, obviously, some big issues with education, but beyond that London is great with amazing cultural and other opportunities. And for teens, great public transport.

What we've all noticed since we moved back is that being Londoner, actually living it, is not vaguely comparable o being an occasional visitor.

rabbit Most of my DDs time is actually spent having nights out but there is something about being part of the buzz and having the intimate knowledge and skills to navigate it. I did long ago toy with moving back to my roots but after many years and a stint in another buzzing world city I would miss all that buzz and opportunity. In my families case, and indeed Herr Holle's, our jobs and academic opportunities are tied to London as a financial, administrative and academic centre. I am glad I didn't go and train as a teacher as a means to returning oop North. Now all my DDs peers, two years graduated, are moving to/staying in London or other capital cities. I can think of only one settling outside London in the UK.

Needmoresleep Your dd's experiences and observations are weirdly paralleling my own. When I applied to medical school Sevenoaks kids usually tried Oxbridge, then Guys, Barts, Kings or UCL etc. Some commuted from home and met more of the same background and schooling, and rarely met a non dentist/medic. St George's, and some of the others that I forget now had a more diverse intake. When I went to Liverpool I naively and arrogantly thought I would be the top of the heap having missed a place by one at Oxford. Instead I found a medical school full of extremely bright Northerners attending their local university, most of whom could wipe the floor with me academically. Interesting that the attitudes of many students, and perhaps parents in the southern/London private schools are unchanged.

Needmore absolutely, being at a London private school hasn't made my DDs materialistic, entitled and narrow minded because we have not parented them to be that way but encountering peers who were has made them develop their own identities in opposition, as well as giving them the skills to navigate a world where manifestly a lot of power resides in the hands of such people. And educationally they have benefitted from so many opportunities as a result of growing up in the midst of so much culture. art is an obvious example it isn't just the trips to all the galleries which could be visited on a day trip, though not at the drop of a hat but having friends whose parents are artists, taking part in artistic communities, being a part of what has gone on in Shoreditch and Hoxton.

Sorry but he makes absolutely no sense,

He spends £1million on his children's education then wonders why they are not meeting children whose parents are petrol pump attendants.

He also needs to realise that only one of his children actually goes to a public school.
The cynical difference between private and public is that as a parent you get them into a public school for the connections and kudos that having a public school listed on their cv will bring.
we parents hand over the tussle over schoolwork, computer games, condoms and hashish pipes gladly for huge sums to the professionals

Is just lazy parenting.

The whole article suggests he has thrown his money about without doing any research then crying fowl.

As for the uk having no social mobility he should take a look Germany's own school system. I bet he went to one of the Gymnasium type schools.

I have a friend, ex pat, who lives there. There are 3 levels of secondary schooling, you are either put in a Gymnasium which is like a grammar school where the world is your oyster and you then can go to University and expected to become, bankers, accountants, solicitors etc If you don't get in there you can then be placed in the next level down. Where you are expected to work in a manual capacity, carpenter, electrician, builder etc if you don't get into there then as she put it you might as well go straight to prison. Her ds took the exam when he hadn't been in the country that long, he is also statemented dyslexic. There is no movement between the schools. He goes to the 3rd level school and the only way out for him is to go back to the uk and board at an English private school which they cannot afford.

Hmm. Interesting. It wouldn't tempt me to move back to London, though. I thought it was great fun as a young, free and single person (and likewise Paris, where I lived for a bit), but the level of stress involved in bringing up children in London seems, on Mumsnet at least, astronomical. Tbh, also, my parents found plenty of artists, musicians and academics to consort with outside of London when they moved out! Not all artists, etc, like London very much, albeit most people see it as a necessary evil. Nice to hear it can still be fun, though - in the last few years, it has started to feel even more crowded than ever and consequently less buzzy and more annoying, dirty and grubby. Obviously I've been out of it too long!!

(That was to Poisonwoodlife)

And now seriously ducking under a parapet.

Perhaps diversity to H. Holle means learning that people from "lesser" backgrounds can be as good as you. Diversity for DC may have been learning that people who consider themselves to be from "better" backgrounds are not necessarily "better". Presumably either way could lead to a lesson in taking people as you find them and valuing different skills and experiences.

And back where we started. DD learned a huge amount spending last summer cleaning and doing kitchen work in a care home. Not just about working with the elderly, but from her colleagues who had they had the same life opportunities may well have been able to have had the same aspirations. It opened her eyes. Her motivation was to tick boxes for her medical school application but it proved to be a really valuable experience in its own right. No reason why H. Holle's DC cannot do the same.

I agree with Mr Holle and I send my DSs to a private school in the UK.

Frankly I would send DSs to a good grammar school if one existed in my town and they were bright enough to get in. We dot have a grammar and DS2 is not quite high enough academic standard so we pay. The alternative is a grim state school in special measures.

The standard of education in DSs private school though is no better than a standard good quality grammar school although it is true they have better facilities than a state school but that is not worth the money I pay.

There is no movement between the schools.
That's not actually true,...and depends on the federal state - some of which base decisions on parental choice, instead of the primary school's suggestion. It depends mostly on the grades obtained by the pupil, though.

One thing that does seem to be a bit of a theme is that the French and German systems are hopeless at dealing with specific learning difficulties/disabilities. Are they very much more systems where you have to be a reasonable all rounder, or a failure, than the UK?

ps these are just conclusions drawn from what posters on Mumsnet have said about their children with dyslexia, etc, who do not in general appear to have been happy with their children's experiences in France and Germany.

rabbit I may be wrong but I think the UK system, though it still has far to go and it has certainly not been a piece of cake enabling my DDs to fulfil their potential, is ahead of much of the rest of the world in terms of recognising SpLDs and supporting bright pupils to achieve. I have heard some horror stories from the States as well.

However it may well be that systems where children start learning later and /or have more formal teaching methods have enabled children with some SpLDs to survive better and avoid the worst experiences of the UK system. Being asked at 5 to learn to read a language renown for it's lack of grammatical and phonetic coherence by look/see was a perfect storm for a Dyslexic, been there, done that and felt stupid......

And to answer your previous point I think at least partly the competitiveness of the London Educations system is of parents own making. It is still possible to inoculate yourself against the angst and Chinese whispers and keep things cool and have a child end up where they should be without years of parental anxiety, tutoring and preparation. At least some of the increased in numbers applying to schools is the vicious circle of parents circulating rumours that it is more competitive than ever and therefore applying for more schools. And with so many applying to private secondary schools as first time buyers from state primaries without the benefit of experience or advice from an experienced Head about where their child should go / will get in, it is a fertile ground for anxiety to be generated. It can be a positive thing, valuing education so greatly means those who get into outstanding state secondary's make for vibrant school communities and in some cases it has even led to such state schools coming into being.