German expat questions value for money of top English private schools

[Bonsoir]

Article

[Bonsoir]

Short-term stays in English boarding school (summer term) can be negotiated with college in 6eme/5eme/4eme and some lycées (usually Catholic) in Seconde. My DSS2 did this twice, in 5eme and 4eme. He enjoyed himself a lot! Quite a lot of "lesser ranking" boarding schools are quite flexible on length of stay.

[StupidBloodyKindle]

Up the Rhein is spot on with her comments regarding the German school system. I am in Bavaria, considered one of the toughest Bundeslaender re difficulty of curriculum, so I am told.
I used to teach secondary in the UK. The difference in syllabus is particularly in languages and mathematics. In the equivalent key stage 3 they are doing key stage 4 material.
In that regard I can see what Herr Holle means re Gymnasium being a decent education. It is highly demanding and if you are not uni material, you won't make it. As for more cultured? erm...no. There may well be helicopter parents making their child read Goethe but most teens I see are typical whatsapping instagramming normal teens. They may be a little more independent but nonetheless, are emoji loving meme citing teens.
I do not see the extra curricular as being that much better than state schools in the UK, and certainly not like the uk private sector. The pastoral system in Gymnasium in my experience is a lot worse than state, as is support for providing for pupils with individual differences and discipline is not consistent nor teaching/marking monitored. Books are marked rarely, if at all
as learning is judged by continuous class testing. But as for diversity, (and I am in a city where the feeder primaries were multicultural rather than a village somewhere) there is still clearly a gap between German children and children with a migration background/Turkish background. The only reason my child made it to Gymnasium was because I knew how to play the game and worked my arse off coaching her. Plus she is white British.

[NotCitrus]

Surely he should realise that more money will have diminishing returns - just as £1,000 gets you a car with 4 wheels that mainly works, £10,000 gets one that's reliable and looks decent, £100,000 shows you have money to spare for slightly better looks and performance, and £1M gets one that those in the know will notice the extra spend but may or may not have any actual advantages over the cheaper versions.

He's managed to impress his mates with using boarding schools but they weren't quite right.

It's fascinating meeting alumnae from my boarding school and others and seeing where they are educating their kids and why - there's a lot of "well we have money and so using private as it must be better", probably more people than saying "we looked at options and liked private school X" - though outnumbered by "couldn't really afford private though our parents are gutted - will see how it goes and if dc aren't doing well, worry about private then"...

[Gruach]

In addition, there are virtually no scholarship recipients at English boarding schools ...

Hmm ... Sevenoaks appears to run at roughly 5% on some form of bursary. If he wanted diversity perhaps he should have looked closer to Windsor, where he might have found an independent school with around 20% receiving financial assistance.

[Gruach]

Forgot the

[senua]

Regarding the differences between the German system and the English system, I quote (from elsewhere on MN*) someone who works at a British University:

"And those all round qualifications usually aren't at A Level standard, no matter what the boosters say (IB HL is, but you only do three subjects at HL, which takes us back to where we started). It's educational to look at a medical school admissions page and note the wide range of European qualifications that they reject out of hand with no negotiation, including the German Abitur. That's because they want a level of Chemistry that you simply won't get without, to some degree at least, specialising.

You can argue whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, but the UK can run three year degrees to Bologna-process Bachelors' level when most of the rest of Europe takes four mostly because of earlier specialisation, and with (in the more selective universities at least) very low non-completion rates. Many European countries run a first year which has a very high non-completion rate to do that initial specialisation we do at A Level. They're different systems; ours is more efficient (fewer people take courses in HE that they do not complete) and quicker (you graduate at 21), but theirs offers more choice and more chance to make mistakes."

So supporters of the Abitur can call it 'broad' whereas others may describe it as 'jack of all trades and master of none'.

(*Hope you don't mind me quoting you, but it is in the public domain.)

[Bonsoir]

At some point all education systems have to put a stop to breadth in favour of specialisation. The sooner specialisation kicks in, the sooner people can get started on their own specialised academic/professional path. There are always going to be debates as to when general breadth should end and specialisation should start. Obviously each stage of a country's system follows on from its own previous stage - not from the previous stages of neighbouring countries.

[Needmoresleep]

Senua, exactly. It really suits my dyslexic DD to be able to drop all essay subjects at 16, whilst a different child might opt for IB (which is offered by Sevenoaks). I am glad we have the choice.

And to pick up Grauch's point. Of course there are bursary students at a school like Westminster. All schools, state and private have different tribes within them. The cool gang, the nerds, the sporty kids etc. They will differ by school, but the principle is the same. The joy of Westminster is that it is fine to be a nerd (just as well in a school where 50% of the year group opt to take double maths at A level) but they have "the rowers" and "the safe group". (For those without teenagers of the right age, "safe" means cool.) Neither DC rowed, played rugby or was safe. They both have lovely friendship groups where money, possessions or backgrounds did not seem to matter much. DS has never understood why you would own more than two pairs of jeans and 4 T shirts, and sees shopping as a once a year chore. His friends are similar. The fact that one might have a billionaire father, and another was living in an ex-council flat with his single mum was really neither here nor there. (And as much credit to the billionaire father as the cash strapped mum.)

Teenagers are greatly influenced by their peers. Perhaps H. Holle might consider instead who his children choose to hang out with, rather than blame a school for a lack of diversity. As Kindle suggests above, you can have children of Turkish migrant families within a school but it does not mean better off German teenagers mix with them. In all schools I am sure there are kids who give weight to possessions, and in private schools the bar will be high, far beyond having the right brand of trainers or the right school bag. Ditto most schools will have a party crowd, which if you are at a private school means a child's Facebook feed can resemble Rick Kids of Instagramme. (There are only two or three degrees of separation within the London private school world so DD will know people who party with the rich and famous - even if she does not.) H. Holle might not be seeing diversity but it will be there. Sevenoaks will have plenty of straight forward day pupils whose parent work hard to pay fees, there will be bursary children, there will be teachers children. We know four families whose children were or are at Sevenoaks and none are from H. Holle's rich London ex pat banker world.

Different cultures have very different expectations about education. European cultures are broadly aligned on the relative emphasis between academics and other aspects of teenagerhood, say compared with some Asian cultures. But there are still differences. One mother managed to bemuse me by starting off complaining that Westminster had not offered a place to her second child, but then continued to complain about Westminster itself. Her verdict..."it was too English". This may be H. Holles other problem. He thinks he will be buying a superior German type education, but instead is buying a well regarded British education. Which is better probably depends on what your expectations and priorities are.

[DorothyL]

In the Gymnasium I went to in sn affluent area 30 years ago people liked to list how much their outfits cost, the most expensive "won"

The children of Romanian immigrants in our year didn't get a look in...

[rabbitstew]

Maybe he thought he was buying a nineteenth century boarding school experience for his children and was thus disappointed that floggings, cold showers and stiff upper lips have been replaced with chats about the dangers of cocaine, centrally heated boarding houses and holidays in Mauritius.

[blueshoes]

Boffinmum: "Many independent schools in the UK have utterly lost their way. You would all be horrified if you knew some of what I knew about their practices."

Would you be able to elaborate?

[BoffinMum]

The one that I am crossest about is the practice of grading parents Gold-Silver-Bronze according to their donations to the school or status in society, and then offering their children different quality teaching and pastoral support according to the supposed 'grade' of the parents. All whilst charging people the same fees to attend the school. So basically a family could be practically killing themselves paying for a private education for their children, but not realising that their children are on the bottom of the pile at school simply because they don't appear rich enough. Some of these children then slip through the net and do worse than they might do in a state school where they would be treated more equally and fairly.

[fiercebadrabbit]

You are KIDDING boffinmum. Please tell me this is not widespread.

[BoffinMum]

i don't know how widespread it is. Not exactly something you can ask to measure. But it is out there. This is why I think all schools should be subject to Freedom of Information requests.

[Gruach]

No ... I've always pretty much assumed that was so Boffin. It makes uncomfortable reading, but I don't disbelieve you. Some children do seem to get much more out of their school life; to be having a fuller and richer and more "significant" experience than others.

(I have, on the other hand, seen some parents shoot themselves in their poor child's foot by being just a little too in the face of the staff or attracting slightly too much attention away from school.)

[BoffinMum]

Exactly, you get picked for special opportunities, offered free out of hours coaching if you fall behind, have people spend ages talking to you about your problems if you get down, and even get ferried around if your parents are otherwise preoccupied. Meanwhile your poorer classmate effectively gets left to fend for his or herself. Yes, there might be small classes, and yes, you might have access to half a term's rowing a year in the better weather, and a school garden party in the summer, but is that really something children should be subjected to? Just because of who their parents are? Quite frankly I find that kind of discrimination revolting.

[BoffinMum]

Prince Harry

This story may or may not be true, and it's clear it's complicated. But it's basically a good description of how the process works in practice.

[Gruach]

Mmm ... But unless you are the woman involved it's ten years old and someone else's story.

I want to know what we can expect in September ...

[BoffinMum]

Yes, of course it's old and hearsay etc.

I think there's something to be said for getting involved with the PTA (or equivalent) or any fundraising initiatives. That is likely to get you labelled as a 'useful' parent.

[Bonsoir]

Private schools are businesses and, like all businesses, tend to reward customer loyalty, customer spend, valuable suppliers etc. It's the way of the (commercial) world.

[WhattodowithMum]

That sounds dreadful, Boffinmum. I can't help feel sorry for DC and their parents who are so busy working to pay the fees that they cannot be "useful."

I wonder if this is less a problem in SS day schools. The competition for rankings, prestige, Oxbridge placement, etc. is do fierce that perhaps they cannot go too far because any child slipping behind will damage their relative position.

[granolamuncher]

What is really quite refreshing about Mr Holle's outburst is that he's a rich banker who, unlike others of his ilk, has not been buttered up by the heads of his DC's schools at private dinners for potential donors where they are made to feel special and cared for and that the ancient institutions in whose pannelled dining rooms they are now quaffing port are all theirs, all theirs now.

We can cry "hypocrite!" but I prefer a banker who worries about social diversity to one who worries about his DC's Oxbridge chances and gets privileged access to the head by telling him about his money. The pity of it is that it's the latter type the heads listen to, not decent people like Mr Holle.

And yes, this certainly does happen at London day schools.

[DarklingJane]

Boffinmum

re gold silver bronze etc

I do not recognize what you say. At All. At my son's school , I just do not.

[DarklingJane]

also , Re your post of 20.58

I do not recognise this either at my son's school. Not one jot.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

Boffin how did you come by the information regarding gold-silver-bronze?

I don't dispute it BTW. I've visited a lot of state schools as part of my work that 'openly' admit to traffic light system for allocation of resources which have nothing to do with parents, but all to do with league tables, OFSTED and teachers' pay. Pretty harsh though on those clever well behaved kids.