German expat questions value for money of top English private schools

[Bonsoir]

Article

[WhattodowithMum]

Diversity is great, and the very wealthy are part of diversity. Too many though is a problem imho. Their status and power means that they can punch above their numbers in terms of influence.

There are lots of lovely comments on this thread about DC not noticing status or wealth and all getting along and making friendships based on less superficial things. That is good to hear.

I do think it might feel hard to be "part of the gang," when kids go skiing every year and you cannot afford to do so, etc. How do you build relationships/make friends when you are excluded from common experiences because those experiences are expensive? (I bring this up as an example because randomly 3 families have talked to me about skiing already. My children have never been, not once.) This might trickle down to the right clothes for going out, or costs of entrances at dance places as they get older, etc. I am not sure. But I can see that there is going to be less shared ground than I expected.

Despite generous bursaries and reasonable fees (in relative terms) my DD has met 12 girls so far, and all come from prep schools. She hasn't met a single other girl from a state primary yet. There are bound to be some, of course. But it looks like my DD will be providing a lot of diversity for others.

All those things are just annoyances though really. When growing up, there will always be times when one feels limited compared to friends and peers in one way or another. Learning to cope gracefully is part of maturing.

My real worry is that she will be a bit confused by it all and it will lead her to frustration and bad decisions as she starts out in life. People with access to capital, wealth reserves to fall back on, and fantastic connections can afford a certain insouciance that DD cannot. Those kind of advantages mean a person can hold out for better jobs, offers and opportunities than someone without them. They can also lead to a blase attitude and appetite for risk that DD can also ill afford. Education and loving, emotionally supportive are important factors in life chances, but they aren't the only factors. It will be a disaster if she thinks she can assume the attitudes and strategies of a "rich kid," when she is not. I am sure there are many "rich people," who would protest that they are not raising their children this way and that they share my values and possibly enforce them even more stringently. Maybe. I think all the effort in the world doesn't change the facts on the ground. And the material facts do influence everything, like it or not.

We would have loved to send DD to a good comprehensive with her neighbourhood friends. But where we live a a "good comprehensive" seems to be an oxymoron. By the end of yr6 she was correcting her teacher's arithmetic and grammar. Over the past 2 years, it's become clear that she is very bright, and that's great. We want an environment where that is normal and she doesn't become bored, disengaged and arsey. So we've dove in.

Time will tell.

[Gruach]

It will be a disaster if she thinks she can assume the attitudes and strategies of a "rich kid," when she is not.

Ah yes. I remember it well ...

[Poisonwoodlife]

whattodowithmum My DDs went to one of the name girls' schools. Yes there were some very wealthy pupils there, and there were some who were entitled and attention seeking and who indulged in exclusive behaviour (the latter behaviour does not necessarily correlate with wealth). However both my DDs sought out friends with the same inclusive values and care and respect for others as them. By the by their friendship groups were amongst the most ethnically diverse. Plenty of parents in these London schools, including the Prep Schools, are there because they find themselves with a bright child and no good state option. It never mattered a jot that we don't go on ski holidays, one went on the school trips, the other didn't. There are so many activities that help them meet like minds I wouldn't worry too much. As one of my elder DD's friends said of a particular group of attention seeking madams in my younger DD's dysfunctional year. They have no respect for us, come to think of it they have no respect for each other, or even themselves........

Which is also another point. A particular cohort can vary enormously, who knows Herr Holles may have experienced an unrepresentative cohort at Sevenoaks........ Dangerous to generalise from one personal experience. I know the antics (and poor academic performance) of some of my younger DDs year is the source of negative views of the school and yet my elder daughters experience could not have been more different.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

what obviously there are rich kids in private school who lead very luxurious lives.

However, please don't assume that they all spend their days doing terribly expensive things. They don't.

When DD has met up with mates this summer, it's involved lunch at Costa or Nandos. Sleepovers. Shopping in Top Shop. The most expensive thing thus far has been seeing Ed Sheeran (ticket 60 quid).

DD's mate on a bursary has been able to join in all this (I think it might be tough if a girl were really strapped) so is having a perfectly normal summer by her mates standards.

And when they all go off on holiday, I'm only aware of where, not how swanky it will be. I suspect the girl who goes to Scotland each Summer is going to a stately home, but that doesn't impress the girls . They want sunshine!

[Davros]

I live in Belsize park, home of The Hall and I agree with everytjlhing fiercebadrabbit said up thread. For years I listened to forrin parents slagging off "the British education system" while wholeheartedly buying into it but pretending they didn't like it. I couldn't understand why, if they really thought schools were so much better wherever they come from, they didn't do everything possible to educate their kids there, the City-earner parent could commute home at weekends, they'd probably see more of them. Then I realised that many of them love it - the competition, status, privilege and even the uniforms they weakly protest about buying. If H Holle couldn't find diversity in London, they even have council homes in Primrose hill, then he wasn't trying very hard. His kids would easily have got places at Haverstock school where the Millibands went (as well as NDubz!). Methink he doth protest too much, he paid for and got exactly what he wanted imo.

[granolamuncher]

What The last 2 posts are full of good advice. Rich kids can make great friends.

My gripe is not with them or with their wealth but with the heads who fail to see that squeezing out the middle means losing a diversity of professionals and of potential role models

[granolamuncher]

Davros H Holle's point was that London's diversity is not reflected in its private schools. That may be obvious to you with your dislike of "forrin" parents at the Hall but it wouldn't be obvious to H Holle's readers in Germany. His point was one worth making.

[BoffinMum]

I had a job interview at Putney Park once - it was a very odd place indeed and I was not at all happy with what I saw. It's a shame if it is still like that 20+ years later.

[Davros]

He seems to be naive and/or disingenuous. Why would anyone expect diversity (not the street dance troupe) in the highest status private schools? Duh!
While we are good friends with lots of parents through DD's (private) school, including forrin ones, we do find that they often live in a parallel universe with little idea of life outside the bubble. We've been told that we are the only english people they know and that there are no english people in this area - I tell them they need to get out more . We lead a fairly normal family life with lots of extended family nearby. We do lots and lots of culture and visiting interesting places or ..... We hang around at home, do local things, lots of community stuff and we do not have a highly anxious existence despite being in London! It's all a matter of choice, we have never bought into the BS

[granolamuncher]

There was an article in The Times a few weeks ago about Westminster Harris 6th Form, the new "free" school (it cost the DfE £47m) sponsored by Westminster School, one of the schools attended by H Holle's DC.

The Times quoted the headmaster of Westminster School (the "public" school) saying that when pupils from both schools were in a class together he couldn't tell who was from his school and who from the new one.

The journalist (an "Old Westminster" herself) was naturally sceptical and asked if this could really be true. "Oh yes," replied Mr Derham, "we're heading for "needs blind" at Westminster you know".

This is palpable nonsense, as everybody on here will know. Such is the schools' PR these days, though, that people do get duped. I can see nothing wrong with H Holle telling his compatriots that British schools are good at appearing great (including pretending to have big bursary funds and to be concerned about diversity) but that they don't live up to their own rhetoric.

I hope he will write another article. His perspective is useful.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

granola are you seriously proposing that the squeezed middle should be role models for my DC?

Why? What do they do that is so cool?

And what about working class people? It's ok to exclude them from private school , right?

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

And if you had any interest in real diversity as opposed to self interest, you'd know tat the ultimtate aim would be to merge Westminster School's sixth form, with WH.

Thus people like me and H. Holle, people you like to portray as 'greedy' and 'immora' will pay top dollar, so that children from the local area can have a top flight sixth form education whatever their parents do. The children of bin men, of nurses, of the unemployed.

Now that seems to me a more worthwhile aim, than reducing fees so that lecturers at the LSE can continue with the lifestyle they had as a child.

[Bonsoir]

Like granola, I much prefer a school where a large proportion of the parent base is working in areas that require (often) extensive professional education and training (high skills) without necessarily earning huge amounts of money. Sure, a few supermodels/entertainers add to the spice of life and lawyers/financiers/CEOs/expats from massive companies are a fact of modern urban life but IME the DC of academics/think tankers/SME owners/self-employed professionals are the powerhouses of the classroom and come from the families most engaged in the wider world. Paris fee levels don't (yet) exclude them.

[granolamuncher]

No,She. Most private schools have always made provision for the genuinely poor. That's often in their statutes. These days the bursaries too often go to the formerly rich but they still exist.

It's salaried professionals who are being squeezed out. Doctors, engineers, architects, accountants. Jobs which often require degrees. Not cool but worth doing. I think it's a pity that pupils at grand schools don't meet the children of such people any more.

Perhaps you agree with the High Mistress of SPGS that degrees are unnecessary?

[WhattodowithMum]

Well put Bonsoir.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

Bonsoir I don't much care what parents do for a living.

At prep level, most of my DC's peers had a SAHP who had done a whole mixture of jobs beforehand. The working parents did a heap of different things, including the jobs you mention (though I don't recall them being especially impressive).

At secondary, I often don't have a clue what parents do. Less so at W than DD's school.

granola I note that you ignore all questions about meaningful diversity.

[granolamuncher]

Thanks, Bonsoir.

I should have added schoolteachers in my list of excluded professionals. Fees have risen so high and staff discounts have been cut so much that teachers at "name" schools can rarely afford to send their own DC there. This is a new phenomenon.

Much admiration is expressed for teachers on here and rightly so. Who wouldn't want their DC to make friends with teachers' DC?

[Bonsoir]

SheGot - Your post of 7:50 yet again reveals - without anyone needing great skills of literary character analysis - your deep-seated desire to punish the established middle-classes. Get over it - it's puerile and demeaning to crow quite so vociferously over those you have leapfrogged materially (but clearly not in manners or generosity of spirit).

[granolamuncher]

Thanks again, Bonsoir.

"Meaningfull diversity" has to be inclusive. It should mean worrying when a particular sector is excluded. That's why I think schools like Westminster could look more closely at the parents they've been losing as well as at projects like Harris 6th Form.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

Bonsoir what is remotely generous about wanting to exclude the children of bin men, but include the children of university lecturers?

As for crowing? Well, I'm sure you would prefer it if people like me knew my place...

But why should I? Why shouldn't I be proud of what I've achieved? I'm a working class woman from one of the worst council estates in the UK. My parents left school at 15.

I've made a success of my life in many spheres. To (mis) quote Zadie Smith; why should I play it down so as not to offend those who were born with advantage but haven't managed quite so much?

I'm sorry if I rankle. If I am evidence that the world has turned on its head.

But I aint getting back in my box .

[rabbitstew]

Well, there might be a bit of a problem if the professions requiring the highest levels of education pay too little to be able to access a reasonable education, as the best educated might then start avoiding those professions in which their skills are actually needed. So, it all depends on whether you believe that a state education is good enough to get your child into those professions, which apparently some people do not believe is possible from some state schools, hence trying to get their children into private schools.... and so it goes round...

[Bonsoir]

There is no need to exclude the DC of bin men. Indeed, in my apartment building (14 family sized apartments plus a loge de gardienne), all the children currently attend private, selective schools, including both sons of our Portuguese gardienne and her taxi-driver husband. In fact, the school the gardienne's DC ranks more highly in the traditional academic tables than the schools any of our other neighbours' DC attend (though all are good schools). Our other neighbours are academics/corporate types/CEOs/bankers/accountants/engineers, both French and foreign (even - gasp - Russian).

Educational apartheid that aims to punish the established MC is clearly your own pet agenda, SheGot. It's not pretty and I suggest you need to work on your chip.

[Bonsoir]

Indeed, rabbitstew. Poor relative pay and - probably even more damaging - appalling working conditions are a deterrent to all sorts of well- intentioned people.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

Bonsoir it only works like tat in France, because private schools are not remotely independent fro the state.

The teachers are paid for by the state and the state prescribe the curriculum etc.

Fees are cheap as chips.

Most independent school users in the UK want them to be independent of the state. Sadly, that costs a lot of dosh.

As for chips. I suggest you work on your own. Life doesn't always turn out how we were lead to believe. For some of us that works out well, for others...not so much.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

rabbit there still seems to be a regular stream from private schools to study medicine/vet med etc the leavers destinations published by DC's schools always have a fair few.

So the (relative) poor pay, doesn't seem to halt the attractiveness.