German expat questions value for money of top English private schools

[Bonsoir]

Article

[Bonsoir]

NeedMoreSleep - it is not that straightforward, by a very long shot! The French equivalent of UCAS is a minefield and getting a place on a selective course is very difficult indeed. However, offers are not conditional on bac grades. They are made on the basis of school reports/references and, unfortunately, heads knowing the right people with whom to place pupils.

Other university courses are non-selective but have a competitive first year, with the vast majority rejected after first year exams.

[UptheRhine]

Drop out rate from German universities is also much higher than in UK. Huge first year classes. Many students repeat years. Some can take 10 years to graduate!

[TheWordFactory]

I shouldn't get excited granola. He's not exactly joining your crusade for a reduction of fees/luxury.

He has had ample opportunity to send his DC to less expensive private schools (not sure why his DC needed to board), or state schools (he has a number of super selective state schools within striking distance)...but he wants his DC to attend 'the best'.

And he rates his education in Germany more highly than any British school. Well that's his opinion. And he's entitled to it. Funnily enough it wasn't enough to send him home to live in Germany .

[Needmoresleep]

UptheRhine, I agree and I think DD may have thought much the same if she had spent a week at Tiffin. There is a certain amount of movement between the very selective state and private schools in London at sixth form, helped by the fact that catchments are dropped and bursaries are available. Depending on what is important to you, private schools appear to offer extra, but equally many parents are relieved when they can stop paying.

Poor Herr Holle. Its not clear what he thinks he is paying for. Social diversity in a financially selective institution seems a big ask.

[Needmoresleep]

TWF, its easier than that. He simply sends them to the German School in Kingston where they will meet German speaking children from a range of backgrounds.

[Sigma33]

I think he's missing the point. A lot of the value of independent schools (for those who value them) is precisely because they have a narrow social base. Your DC have a better chance of being chums with the future PM, judges, City CEOs etc, and that will pay dividends after school years.

[TheWordFactory]

You've gotta love the guy's thought process.

He didn't like the lack of 'diversity' at The Hall, so from there he chose boarding at Sevenoaks .

Does he expect anyone to take this seriously?

[Bonsoir]

I think he expected his DC to emerge from Sevenoaks "well educated" ie with a broad and deep grasp of a range of classic academic disciplines, and that his primary complaint is that his expectations have not been fulfilled as much as he thinks they ought to have been, given the £££££. I agree that expecting to encounter socio-economic diversity when the price tag is as high as it is is just silly. But high academic standards? Fair enough.

[TheClacksAreDown]

What a ridiculous article. Who knew that schools that charge11k a term would be dominated by the wealthy?

[TheWordFactory]

It must have become very obvious to H. Holle whilst his DC were at The Hall that he wasn't getting what he wanted.

So why carry on in the sane vein?

I thought this guy was meant to be bright?

[senua]

What a very strange article. I'm not quite sure what Mr Holle wants because he seems to contradict himself. I think his message might be better received if he had opted out of boarding part-way through the twins' education instead of bad-mouthing it at the end of Y13.
Also, I'm not quite sure why we are supposed to extrapolate from one family's experience to cover all education across the whole of Britain and Germany.

[Bonsoir]

I think, TheWordFactory, that evaluating an education system part way through when you are an outsider is a very hard task. I meet an awful lot of "foreign" parents with little to go on but hearsay and the task confounds people with all sorts of qualifications of the highest level. Mid way points are confusing because the pathways through subjects vary wildly between national systems.

[UptheRhine]

Bonsoir: If you look at the IB results from Sevenoaks, they are pretty good by anyone's standards. And most would argue that the IB offers as broad - if not a broader -education than the German abitur. So not convinced that he has any grounds to criticise the academic standards..(no association with Sevenoaks btw).
I assume his offspring spent the first 13 years of their life at home and four out of 12 months of the year at home while boarding. So if they now lack social range and an appreciation of the value of money perhaps Herr Holle should question his own parenting.
Beginning to feel a bit sorry for his kids. Must be really embarrassing for them. Man clearly lacks judgement in giving this kind of half baked spinnable interview to the press. Bet he's regretting it now. Do you think he gave them those photos?

[TheWordFactory]

Come on bonsoir.

Any half way intelligent and engaged parent evaluates their DC's education regularly.

Perhaps H. Holle is neither ?

[UptheRhine]

Also, Bonsoir, he has been settled in UK for 20+ years, so not exactly an outsider.

[DarklingJane]

The thing which comes across most strikingly to me is this "And we parents hand over the tussle over schoolwork, computer games, condoms and hashish pipes gladly for huge sums to the professionals.” Some might, this is not the reason most parents I talk to chose their independent boarding school for their children.

I assume the topic of UK boarding school vs high quality German state school has a particular resonance in Germany and that's why the article was published over there. If he were simply saying is a "top" boarding school value for money against a very good UK state school then would the Telegraph have bothered printing it? Hardly controversial.

As it is it comes across a bit as if they want to drum up a bit of " 'e comes over 'ere , criticising our schools " to me.

[Bonsoir]

UpTheRhine - I am well acquainted with Sevenoaks School for many reasons, only one of which being that we contemplated/investigated sending DSS2 there for IB. We/he ultimately preferred retaining him in the French system. He will be going to university in England this September. Do I think that he would have been "better educated" at Sevenoaks than at his Paris Catholic lycee? Do I think he would have "done better" in the UCAS rounds had he been at Sevenoaks? Do I think he would have been "more polished" at Sevenoaks? The answers are resoundingly No, No and I Bloody Well Hope So (for what else would have been the point?)!

[AmazonsForEver]

I think the difficulty is that the 'well educated' part is impossible to discern as 'high academic standards' is all that is measured/published.

How are parents supposed to judge which schools actually educate children as opposed to prepare them for exams?

[Bonsoir]

Are you able to evaluate your DCs' education versus other systems, TheWordFactory? No, thought not . It's best not to claim certain things are easy when you yourself have no clue about them.

[Bonsoir]

Amazons - that is the critical question, IMO. The only way that really has any meaning is by talking, personally, to a lot of pupils and alumni and making your own judgement call....

[senua]

Are you able to evaluate your DCs' education versus other systems?

Er, wasn't that the whole point of the article - that he was passing on his wisdom re evaluating boarding schools?
He either knows - in which case take action - or he doesn't - in which case keep his (non)thoughts to himself.

To be fair, he does seem to have taken some action because DS3 is at a day school. Are we to expect another rant, against uber-selective schools, in a few years' time?

[TheWordFactory]

Bonsoir I constantly evaluate my DC's education (including against the systems in other countries).

Many parents do.

For some reason it's important to you to portray this as super difficult and beyond H. Holle. Everyone else seems to find him and his opinions a bit daft.

[fiercebadrabbit]

At my dc's prep, European bankers make up the majority of parents. They are utterly obsessed with the English private-school system and aghast (and somewhat impressed) my dcs previously attended state schools. They also are outraged when anything is not perfect. It seems to me that in expat circles, schools are the main (or only) thing people have in common so are discussed to death and take on far too much importance, and that if you move country navigating a state system can seem very scary and you decide the best way to set up your children as Brits is to buy into a seemingly foolproof system.

[TheWordFactory]

fierce there will always be some fools who think a school/educational system can, or indeed should, be perfect.

H.Holle was looking for 'paradisiacal'. And was, unsurprisingly disappointed. He was looking for diversity, and was disappointed. He was looking to outsource the business of parenting teens... there's a theme here .

[UptheRhine]

Bonsoir: you are in the lucky position of having bilingual children in an academically selective school in France. You come across as well educated and interested in your DCs education - in the broadest sense of the word. Like a middle class parent with a child in a UK selective school you can be sure your children will be able to access the UK university system and do well.
Most German families do not share these advantages. Most children do not get a place in a Gymnasium. Even if they start off there, the rigidity of the system is such that many have to repeat years, or to drop out and move to a second or third tier school with all the damage that does to their academic careers and their self esteem.
So for many German students a move to a UK independent school is a real life line. The child who excels in Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Biology but who is rubbish at essay based subjects gets poor marks in the abitur. But she can go to a Uk school, come out with good A levels and do well.
Moreover she will learn fluent English which is now a reqirement for a decent job in Germany. Obviously this is an option only open to the rich.