Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.
Secondary education
German expat questions value for money of top English private schools
Bonsoir · 19/07/2015 12:39
minispringroll rein theoretisch there is movement between the schools but whilst I have seen many Gymnasium kids booted out of Gymnasium down to Realschule I am still waiting to see those from Realschule being "promoted" to Gymnasium, esp in key stage 3 or 4. Once they turn 16 if they have a decent mittlere Reife they might be welcome to do their Abi in sixth form but before then, I haven't seen much movement. I suppose it is is similar to streaming in the UK where you might get put in a lower set rather than mixed ability except at least in UK, there is chance to be moved up the following year, sometimes even during the year pending timetabling plus even at GCSE, some of the options may be mixed ability. My point being if you are bone idle at key stage 2 or 3 or a late bloomer, at least in the UK you have some chance to turn it around or prove yourself. Plus Ofsted, such as they are, and statementing/IEPs such as they are, address the weaknesses of the teaching/provide to some degree support for the individual. I just do not see that in Germany. And my kid is in Gymnasium, has not yet resat (touch wood) and so I am happy as I can be, not bitter, just sad for those that do get screwed over (as an ex teacher socialist find it all a bit wearing).
rabbitstew I have seen kids with dyslexia be given a slight compensation on grade test margins or be given a bit more time in the test because of obviously being given a bit more time is going to help them overcome all the reading involved 
. Kids with German as a second language can have a year's support pre starting school but not seen much support in primary KS1/2. International school is as expensive as public school in the UK. That said, in first year of state Gymnasium there was a support group one hour a week.
A fellow mum whose child has ritalin fought every step of the way for him, for him to not be labelled 'naughty' and have his ADHD taken into account. Have never seen a TA or learning support department in the (state) system. You get therapists available to help with movement, how to hold your pen and there is access privately to dyslexia specialists but not in the school itself.
Coaching/homework support is a big thing here, lots of companies offer it...if you know what you are doing, you can find cheaper options in adult ed centres but if you are minimum wage/non- German, access to even the basics can be hard. They were talking of a no future generation back when I was teaching in the UK but seriously Hauptschule does seem to label the kids early although I have met two people who went to Hauptschule who worked their way up into a decent job by working on qualifications for an inordinate length of time and via alternate routes Berufschule usw
I think basic all rounder is about right...essentially you fail the year and have to resit the year if you get two Es or one F in end of year report...sounds fair enough right? until you consider it is done purely on stats/averages on class tests and then look at the marking schemes/class averages and % needed to get a C, which for MFL was something bloody crazy like 75%
On top of that in the UK you get a degree of choice for options and certainly get to choose your A levels whereas in Germany you choose a pathway eg a third language or social studies/childcare/domestic science ("Pudding Abi"?!) or business/law/ICT but you cannot mix and match for your own personal interests eg drama/media studies etc Then at A-level you have to do Maths German one science one humanities etc so far more rigid than the UK.
It may be broad based but it means the kids cannot opt out of subjects they hate and pursue what they love.
Happy to hear from fellow expats or Germans with alternative views, I need all the help and positivity I can get 
So-called independent schools in the UK are, largely speaking, tied to the same exam syllabi as state schools. The last four years of education are more, not less constrained in English "independent" schools than in French private lycées where the DC do far fewer exams and spend more time learning. But you wouldn't know that, ShesGot, because your knowledge of other systems and countries is superficial and, indeed, as you frequently demonstrate on these boards, a product of your own imagination and wishful thinking. You should keep to the day job of popular fiction
Bonsoir of course I will keep my day job. What an odd thing to say. I'm hugely successful at it and I love it 
.
Your DC's schools and their education might be the epicentre of your existence, but for me, not so much.
I am still waiting to see those from Realschule being "promoted" to Gymnasium
We generally had the opportunity to move to Gymnasium after 4th, 6th or 10th grade. My mum considered me to be too young (and I had attended 3 different primary schools) at the end of 4th, so I stayed on at our local Gesamtschule (Grund-, Haupt- und Realschule). I did visit our local Gymnasium for a day when I was in 5th grade, to see whether I might like it,...I didn't. My grades were dire in 5th and 6th (bright, but lazy), so I switched to the "Gymnasium" stream of a different Gesamtschule after 10th grade (again, didn't like it) and to a normal Gymnasium out of catchment after 11th grade (which I loved,...it's an amazing school). My sister went through Realschule, then gained her university entrance through her vocational training and is currently completing her MSc. Education is the responsibility of the federal governments, so there are different education systems across the country as a whole. We didn't have to pick a particular "strand" to follow, for example.
I do, however, not agree with the idea that children should be allowed to drop subjects they don't like - at least not, if their aim is an academic education, leading on to university entrance. It's one of the main things I really like about the German Abitur - the wide subject coverage. I consider GCSEs and A-Levels to be rather restricting...and also a bit limiting in terms of expectation. I went to university in the UK with people, who couldn't spell for toffee (and who looked at me like when I asked whether they are dyslexic). I've done teacher training with university students, who didn't know how to multiply or divide by a two-digit number...and were rather unconcerned about this complete lack of basic skills, stating that they'd only teach FS/KS1 anyway. 
There are things I like and dislike in both systems.
Each Bundesland is different I know, and Bavaria does have a rep. But the movement you refer to is not that far from what I stated: you get your "label" at the end of grade 4.In Bavaria you have to have the grade average to pass or you take an exam at the town hall to get in. Or else you don't.
After 10th grade sure, once you already have your mittlere Reife. The Oberstufe at the end of the day is like sixth form.
But after sixth grade? Not in my experience...
Theoretically kids who have had a successful two year Unterstufe should be able to go to seventh grade then onto Mittelstufe/choose their Zweig. But I haven't seen one this year (DD in seventh grade) I acknowledge it must happen, just have yet to see it in action.
Gesamtschulen are deemed better than the separate Hauptschulen/Realschulen according to Germans I have chatted to.
How old is your sister now out of interest? I do take some positives that you can get to where you want to go via different routes. I just struggle with the fact that my kid might not end up graduating until her mid to late twenties when I had already graduated and been working full time by then.
The lack of numeracy/literacy you mention from UK undergrads/PGCE students is worrying, yes. You only need to read some of the MN threads about class teachers' spelling to know this can occur. Am surprised re the long multiplication though. You had to have at least a C in Maths/English to be allowed to train as a teacher. But I did O-levels(!) so we did long multiplication (not the German method though).
I always held up the German system when I was in the UK as being more practical/useful in terms of differentiating/allowing pupils to achieve at their level. But then, having got here, I realised it really wasn't as simple as that.
There is a lot of pressure to do well and parental pressure (Frau Mueller muss weg, anyone?!) and so, if, like you were...you have bright but lazy kids, it can be demotivating. as a parent anyway
How did your mum deal with it mini, did she nag you much in y5 or 6 or have faith that you'd get through okay?
I suppose I ought to be grateful that my DD will have a broader education than I did. It just feels punishing forcing a kid to do French and Physics when they have an aptitude for neither!
Rita Bavaria is a whole different world. My sister is 29 now. However, she finished Realschule at 16, then completed her school-based vocational training for three years, worked for a little while, started her undergraduate course (she's a physio)...completed that as a 2-year short course due to experience, worked a little more and is now doing her MSc in Health Management (part-time, while working).
My parents operate very much along the lines of: "As long as the child is happy, who cares?" Our grades were mostly between 1 and 3, sometimes a 4 or 5. They didn't stress much about it and always went on the premise that their children are actually bright, but need to find their own way in life. School's important, but it's not everything. (I do appreciate that this is a very unusual approach, particularly in Western Germany. Most of my friends' mums were constantly hovering around them.) We were one of the few families, where both parents were working full time, so there certainly was no time to constantly do extra work or taxi us around to enrichment activities. (They did sit down with us and help/explain, if we asked for it.) It's something I try to instill in my classes here in the UK - to take some responsibility for their learning. I'm there to teach,...I can't make them learn. That's fully up to them and won't work unless they are prepared to do it and are ready to put the effort in.
sunshield There are different types of Gesamtschulen. In some, you get set across different subjects, similar to British comprehensive schools. In others, you are basically in a stream and stay there. Classes don't tend to mix and lead to different qualifications.
We didn't have to take a test to go to the Gymnasium. It was purely based on grades and teacher recommendation, together with parental preference. (Rules depend on the federal state, though.) Children, who do not speak German, will struggle in both Gymnasium and Realschule. That's why they usually get put into the Hauptschule - at least initially. A friend of mine came over from Eritrea and repeated a year in primary school, to get the appropriate language skills. She then moved up to Realschule and Gymnasium - thanks to her very pushy social worker. However, as a parent, you need to push for it. Nobody will simply move them up.
To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.