Right. Tell me what to do here- key words- 11+, g&t, University, widening access......

[BertrandRussell]

Ds is at a secondary modern school. 7% high ability, of which he is one. Letter home today inviting him in a visit to our local (excellent) university because he has been "identified as talented in one or more subjects"

Fantastic thar the school is arranging visits- it has only just started to send any kids to university at all. The school's catchment means that there are very few parents with more than a basic education, and they are pushing hArd to raise the aspirations of the kids- which is fantastic.

Dp and I have 4 degrees between us. Dd is at a Russell group university. Ds will definitely, if he wants to, go to university. It iseems ridiculous of the school to waste a space on this trip on ds. Should I say something? He's not particularly bothered- except that it means a day off school. If he doesn't go, they could give the space to someone that it might actually make a difference to. Surely they should have thought of this? What do I do? And is it depressing that even in a secondary modern school, privilege attracts privilege?

Bertrand could you volunteer to drive your DS and another liberating space in the minibus?

Eek. That's worse isn't it? I went to grammar school in Kent, as my mother did before me. Neither of us were regarded as "university material" in those days - the same old days when the clever children went to the grammar school and their dimmer brothers and sisters were sent to the local indys often to go on to have better careers because careers advice for the non academic in the indies was to go into things like surveying and marketing; whereas at the grammar schools it was to join the civil service at 18 or go to work in a bank as a teller

I think the OP needs to get on with it and the let the boy make his own decisions, encouraging him as much as possible. I know Kent well and if they are from my part then it would do far more good for the other children to see this lad go on the trip than to decline it.

Actually, that's not a bad idea at all, summersend- I might well do that. I did that once before for something when someone got their form in late.........

I went to a grammar school and was the first person in my entire family to get a degree. I was actively discouraged from going to study beyond o levels and a levels as I was a girl and would get married. I first of all went to teacher training college ( acceptable) and then dropped out and did a degree elsewhere instead. My parents barely helped with any finance but thank god for old fashioned grants! Obviously this was donkeys years ago. Both my parents also went to grammar schools but left at ages 14 and 16 respectively. At my DDs 'outstanding' school there are several very bright kids who got 3 grade A at A level who didn't go off to university despite talent because their parents thought it pointless.

Send him.

Someone else on this trip will not have the same background as your son and will benefit from him being there.

You have no idea if the school would send another child if he didn't go, or if reduced numbers would cancel this trip.

And you ds deserves a day off.

Lordy Mercy! Let the boy go!

You are over thinking it. There are too many variables you aren't privy to. Just make sure he is geared up to get the most out of it that he can. All this angst could inadvertently have a negative effect on him.

We have a very mixed cohort, and we would not send a child like your son on a widening access course. But we would the deal with parents who would hear about the trip, misunderstand the rationale for it (and we wouldn't particularly want to labour it with them) and question why their child wasn't on it. Because, like a pp, they would think their child met the criteria (able) and want the opportunity for their child. We do however have lots of able students from backgrounds like yours, and weare used to dealing with this. If your son's school has fewer students, then their experience will be different.

"OP - you asked and people have overwhelmingly said to send him.

If you don't want to, for whatever reason, then don't. We don't care that much."

Well some people seem to care an inexplicable amount- they are taking it to heart ever so much! But if you don't then can I suggest not posting?

you may have missed my post several hours ago when I said that he was going

TheFallenMadonna- can I ask what criteria you use to choose people for trips like this?

Just a thought a local school did a gifted and talented trip to Oxbridge and they had an afternoon exploring the interview process, the questions that may be asked, and what type of candidates they look for. Surely activities like that must be worth going for?

Maybe it's the school's letter which is badly worded. Maybe they should just say that they expect the top sets to take up this opportunity, and not make a song and dance about it being for Gifted and Talented?

Would I also be right in thinking that previously academically able children would have gone elsewhere for 6th form?

Our definites would be able students in receipt of pupil premium. For any remaining places, we would go for students we thought would benefit. We wouldn't have strict criteria. We would use our judgement. Probably not your son!

That's a good point LaVolcan. Do they have a 6th form? May well be an early recruitment drive.

We don't use "gifted and talented" any more, thank goodness!

" a[grin-When it comes down to it though nobody cares. Really they don't"

No problem with that at all. Just it would be nice if the people who don't care demonstrated it by not shouting at me.

"Our definites would be able students in receipt of pupil premium. For any remaining places, we would go for students we thought would benefit. We wouldn't have strict criteria. We would use our judgement. Probably not your son!"

Oh, TFM- I think I love you. Finally the voice of reason!

I've been out for most of the day and am a little surprised we're still debating this?
Bertrand you clearly don't want your DS, the vast majority on here from all different backgrounds don't agree with your views and can't understand why you don't want him to go, lots of good reasons for going have been given but "at last" you've found the "voice of reason," agreeing with your stance and your happy. That's great, as you very obviously feel so strongly about it I think you're right don't send him, I hope he enjoys his PE lesson and with a bit of luck someone else will take his place, end of story.

Bertrand I've agreed with many things you've written over the years but I think you might have been overthinking this a bit.

I completely understand your thinking here, but I think whether you mean it to or not it would have come across to the teachers as "are you sure you mean someone like my son? we're a very special family whose children don't really belong in a secondary modern, you know".

Like others have said, leave it up to the school to decide. Even if you suspect their logic, actively challenging it and offering to bow out would send all sorts of messages that probably won't be very good for your son.

I have dc who need every extra motivational boost they can get despite lots of degrees in the family - there's more than just family background that influences their ultimate choices about studying and applying for university.

Or another way of thinking about it - maybe every child at a SM has their inclination and aspiration to work hard towards university subconsciously knocked down by some percentage compared to what it would be if they had the confidence boost of having passed the 11+, and were at a school surrounded by a higher (critical) mass of young people focused on going there. You could think of your son as therefore running at 80 or 90% of his natural university-aspiration-level and therefore having something that needs boosting (compared to an otherwise identical child not at the SM) - regardless of where he is compared to the average of all his schoolmates.

That focus on ultimate goals (whatever they are) and willingness to work has got to power him through a lot of peer pressure over the next few years, and as much as possible needs to come from his own experiences, not just your background. He is as entitled as any other child who's been knocked back by the 11+ experience forced on them in Kent to have his confidence and motivation to work hard boosted back up by an access scheme.

Sorry Bertrand was trying to say "you clearly don't want your DS to go"

Yes, but they did ask your son. Perhaps they used different criteria - which of course is fine, because there is no absolutely correct criteria.

It is good to see that he will be going. I'm sure he will gain something from the day, even if it isn't the same as others gain - often the way that different people gain different things from events.

During this thread, people have pointed out that your early suggestion that your son didn't need the course and others did and that perhaps he shouldn't go could be seen an patronising - you didn't like those comments.

Many many people said you should send him and pointed out all the positives for any individual child of such a visit, as well as for him specifically because of the kind of school he is at - and you didn't like it.

Frequently you have quoted people on this thread and then disagreed with them - perhaps only once or twice seeming to like something said.

You have accused people of rudeness, when people's comments about yourself or your son have been intended to be helpful and point out to you how saying your privileged son will benefit less than others from such a course, will come across to others.

Quite simply it seems to me that you have no appreciation of the views of others or ability to take on board what people say, even when voiced by numerous people and supported with good evidence. I find it bizarre. I find it bizarre that you would come on here to ask a question but be totally unprepared to hear any of the answers given or to even consider that your initial ideas could be amended in any way. The fact that you have been so dismissive of the vast, vast majority of posters and their views on here, is why a couple of people have said they don't really are what you do - it is a response to your refusal to even consider the well thought out ideas of others.

At the end of the day, we all engage in these threads, not because we really care that much about your DS, but because we enjoy a discussion - if the discussion is able to help someone make an informed choice, then all to the good. When the discussion becomes lengthy and the OP refuses to hear what is put forward over and over again, that is when people finally respond with 'we don't care' - it is a response of frustration because people have actually put in the time to answer your question and feel they deserve to be heard, especially when 99% of people are saying the same thing.

What did you want when you started this thread - that everyone would simply agree with you? It really seems you didn't want to hear the other side, because you have never acknowledged any validity in it at all.

I hope your boy does go on the day put and get something useful from it. I hope you are able to make clear to him that it can be useful to him too and that you aren't pushing a message to him that he is different to the others, because that will never go down well if he then puts it across to his peers in the superior way you sound as if you put yourself across to the school and other parents. Empathy and awareness of others is a great thing.

To continue with DDDrinker's line of thinking, the fact that he prefers a double PE lesson to the potential interest of a university visit would persuade me that he could well benefit from a bit of inspiration.
Also if he is articulate and regarded as quite cool (making assumptions here), his interest and enthusiasm after the visit could interest a wider circle of DCs, just as negative signals by him not going could.

Sounds to me like you have a big chip on your shoulder about your DS being at secondary modern. As someone said earlier, you clearly have a sense that Sec Mod is not where a family such as yourselves should have children - you are a cut above that. Perhaps being offered a widening access scheme has made you feel that sense of you being 'better' in some way more keenly and that you need to reject it, because to accept it, is to accept your child IS a sec mod child, with all that entails.
The attitude that your family is better than sec modern will never come across well to other parents or teachers. If it comes across from your DS too, it will be abhorred by the other children.

I'm sorry if your DS didn't get into the school you felt was right for him - his background with your family will no doubt help him and he won't be the most disadvantaged child by any means, but the fact is he is at sec mod and that does place him statistically in a disadvantaged position regarding higher education, especially at top universities. You need to recognise that - not to be depressed by it or to believe that he has no future - of course he does, but he too needs every opportunity and to take every one he can to beat the statistics. Part of him succeeding is you acknowledging that reality rather than perhaps burying your head in the sand and thinking that he is different, he is different, - he can be different and be more successful than the typical sec mod kid....but it will require more effort than just believing his parent s having degrees sorts it.

Excellent and insightful posts chocolatewombat.