Right. Tell me what to do here- key words- 11+, g&t, University, widening access......

[BertrandRussell]

Ds is at a secondary modern school. 7% high ability, of which he is one. Letter home today inviting him in a visit to our local (excellent) university because he has been "identified as talented in one or more subjects"

Fantastic thar the school is arranging visits- it has only just started to send any kids to university at all. The school's catchment means that there are very few parents with more than a basic education, and they are pushing hArd to raise the aspirations of the kids- which is fantastic.

Dp and I have 4 degrees between us. Dd is at a Russell group university. Ds will definitely, if he wants to, go to university. It iseems ridiculous of the school to waste a space on this trip on ds. Should I say something? He's not particularly bothered- except that it means a day off school. If he doesn't go, they could give the space to someone that it might actually make a difference to. Surely they should have thought of this? What do I do? And is it depressing that even in a secondary modern school, privilege attracts privilege?

Whenever this OP posts on her son's school this happens. He should be in the grammar school. His prior attainment puts him in the most able group of students. That he isn't highlights a failing of the 11+ system. I disagree with the OP on lots of things, including whether or not sitting the 11+ at all is the right thing to do. But she is not wrong here. Or at least, not completely. Her son is not a child for whom widening access schemes are designed. The school should be more discriminating in their choice in order to ensure students who would benefit more, do. Simply looking at statistics in this case means another more disadvantaged child (with respect to higher education) may miss out. I have some sympathy with the school though. I suspect OP that they are a bit wary of you (sorry!) and have misjudged your opinion here.

Oh, so there's history here. That's explains why posters are so willing to make so many judgement and assumptions - "chip on shoulder" sort of stuff. Still not really covering themselves in righteous glory though - just looks like a playground fight from where I'm reading. Perhaps everyone needs to vent a bit and the OP is a convenient target.

That said, there have been some more balanced and helpful words here.

I wonder if the OP will change their mind.....?

Thefallen maybe they didn't have enough candidates. Kids suitable for Oxford are rare and those from disadvantaged families even rarer if you go by the argument for pp. Bit pointless sending kids just because,far better to use extra places on those uber pesky middle class kids most of whom aren't exactly rolling in it themselves.

A major storm in a teacup and a look at me the champion for the poor thread.

So bored of the stealth involved,middle class parent bashing.It's utterly tedious.

Oxford?

I really don't understand your post Lily. Where does Oxford come into this? Where does class or perceived class come into this?

Military children get PP for example. If a parent is a Major, are they not middle class? Their child would get PP (although a reduced amount). If you look at the most recent research on how schools inspire pupils to go to university, there are very many indicators which might lead a child to be considered for a widening access scheme. Few schools send children on university trips in year 9 though. A lot of school do, anecdotally, say that peer to peer mentoring and talking about university is a really good way of motivating students who may not be considering university. So my suggestion up thread that the OPs DS talks about aspiration to his friends is seen as a good thing, not an arrogant thing. The best schools try and influence the children that should be going to university by a whole raft of measures and a trip to a university is just one avenue. It interested me to read that poorly organised days at the university were seen as boring by the pupils! Some experiences of universities were viewed as brilliant! It appears to depend where you go to get a real boost to aspiration.

I agree with ChocWombats analysis.

Bertrand
The fact that a Secondary Modern has decided to pick out G&T students should be celebrated.
It shows that the 11+ is not a good selector.
The judgement of the head should be supported not undermined.

If your kid thinks that PE is more important and that he is a shoo in for Uni
as you thought he was a shoo in for Grammar school
shows that the school is probably correct in their selection list

Lily it's not Oxford if it's local to somewhere in Kent. I suspect even Bertrand might be tempted by her DS being hand picked for a day trip to Oxford. It's probably the University of Kent, which may well not be on her hit list for her DS. It's probably ok for some of the other kids though.

The three most accurate predictors of academic success are parental income, parental-specifically maternal- level of education and social class just in case any of you are interested in carrying in the tributary discussion which seems to have started.

I have not complained about people being rude to me- although I admit I was a bit shocked by the amount and level of abuse! What I have objected to is people being rude about my son. To call a child arrogant, selfish and to say that he does not care about his friends based on their opinion of his mother strikes me as despicable, and I am, frankly, amazed that anyone would sink quite so low.

Incidentally, the person who said that The University of Kent would not be on my "hit list" knows very little about me, but more worryingly, even less about The University of Kent.

TheFallen I don't think there is universally accepted criteria for widening access schemes.

I'm heavily involved in it and we certainly don't limit ourselves to x or y. If we were to target the least represented we'd probably be looking at kids in care and travellers!

I'm also not a big fan of sifting for the most needy on trips like these. The children in question might not like that at all. Surely just better to take a group that includes the most in need, so they're just part of the gang?

When I visit schools I ask them to encourage as many as possible to attend. Not a small band of the disadvantaged .

I know it's good Bertrand and one of DS's closest friends is currently there, but it's probably not your uni of choice for your DS, if only because it's so local. Also, it's not 'RG' and you do make a bit of a thing of 'RG' to be fair - you even mentioned your DD is at a 'RG' in your original post.

Oh, right. So "It's probably the University of Kent, which may well not be on her hit list for her DS. It's probably ok for some of the other kids though." was just a dig then. Fair enough.

So it is on your DS hit list bertrand?

Yes, since you ask. Kent offers joint honours in philosophy and drama. And modules in stand up comedy.

If your DS is thinking about the University of Kent then he should definitely go. DS2 recently looked at some universities, the one he thought he would be his first choice he actually didn't like when he spent the day looking at it and listening about the course etc. he also didn't like the atmosphere there or the surrounding city very much.

TWF -

So now that BR has answered the uni of Kent question, I assume there was some positive and constructive contribution you were about to make about Uni of Kent?

Or was is just part of some tedious point scoring game on this thread?

Why would any school not visit the University of Kent when it's on their doorstep? An excellent choice for a Year 9 visit - of course your son should go op.
TheFallenMadonna is right though in that the school is probably a bit wary of you - as a governor and a parent who is heavily invested in her son's education they risk you 'kicking up a fuss' if he was not invited.

"TheFallenMadonna is right though in that the school is probably a bit wary of you - as a governor and a parent who is heavily invested in her son's education they risk you 'kicking up a fuss' if he was not invited."

Fortunately, the school actually know me quite well- unlike posters on this thread- and I am happy to assure you they would think nothing of the sort. They know that I am invested in my own child's education, but they also know that I am equally invested in the school, and in the education of the other 1000-odd pupils. Particularly the significant minority who come from homes where education and aspiration are not encouraged- and in some cases actively discouraged.

I have to chortle at whomever said children aren't aware of their differences in background. It very obvious when one child has clothes from JL or a school outfitters and the rest have them from the market. When one child has woven name tapes sewn into said clothes and all the others have Biro written onto the size labels. When one child speaks in umc accentless voice and the rest speak with a strong regional accent. When one child says 'for'ud' and the rest boggle (but use 'for-hed').

Bertrand I do wonder how your son will view this time when he is an adult. I would have reached for my chequebook and paid for an education by now. The problem with political principles is that the parent is not the one that has to live the consequences of their decision. I hope you and he are close, and he can fully understand your stance, for both your sakes.

If he doesn't go, they could give the space to someone that it might actually make a difference to. Surely they should have thought of this?

Coming to this very late. My guess is that yes, the school has thought about it and still think your DS, despite having parents laden with degrees, would benefit from the trip. And no, not to act as "interpreter" for those poor kids tugging their forelocks, but for his own sake.

Perhaps they have recognised an attitudinal issue in your DS that they hope to address?

The school should be applauded not criticised.

MN what possible point could anyone score?

MN isn't a game. There aren't winners losers. Nor do we need a self appointed umpire thanks.

I asked because if Kent is on the child's hit list, then I can't think of any possible reason not to go.

I would have reached for my chequebook and paid for an education by now.

I don't want to "gang up" on you OP. But having read a lot of these threads, I think yellowcurtains is onto something here.

I know I am going off topic, and I don't mean to score points, but it's clear that you are not comfortable with your DS's school. You are not at ease, and you do not trust that everything is fine and will be fine. This has to be the most damaging aspect of the situation for your son, more than his school being a "secondary modern," etc. The fact that he will be picking up that you don't like things and don't think they are good enough will sour his school experience. These are important years that you and he will never get back. He will be better off getting stuck in and working hard. Hard to do if you are holding yourself aloof not sure that you really respect and believe in the institution you are in. It's hard to flourish when you are disengaged on some level.

If you can afford it, change his school. Get on with something you can get behind and support. I know you think you are supporting, but looking from the outside, I am not so sure. It looks more like constant judgement and nitpicking.

Bertandif the school know y so well, and we don't, why in God's name did you start a thread ?

I don 't want to put words into Bertrand's mouth Whattodomum but I have the impression that she very much values the teachers there and what they are trying to do. However as you say having an outlier (whether by aptitude or aspirations) does have the consequence for her of more involvement and intervention in her DS's education. The jury is out whether her DS will reach his potential and develop his own selfmotivation in that system. I think most of us who could afford to pay for a good school in that situation would have but maybe Bertrand's DS will compensate academic attainement with other advantages from being in a 'fish out of water' situation.

Other than the exact amount of time it takes to run, at 7.37 am, from a flat I lived in briefly to Rochester train station, I know very little about Kent. Everything about its education system I have learnt on MN.

So I have no real idea how recogniseable this particular school is here. But I imagine more local posters and non posters might be able to identify it. Have to say if I were another parent with a child there I would be thoroughly, thoroughly pissed off to find a governor constantly telling the world how rubbish I am and what shitty chances of success my child has. All the while pointing out how different their own family is and, by implication, how brilliantly the school will be kicked into shape now they're on the team.

But it's an interesting question - because I'm sometimes guilty of the OP's kind of thinking myself. I have consistently failed to apply for opportunities aimed at a group which I undeniably belong to - because I don't think the criteria apply to me. It's done me no good at all.