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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Right. Tell me what to do here- key words- 11+, g&t, University, widening access......

370 replies

BertrandRussell · 08/07/2015 22:28

Ds is at a secondary modern school. 7% high ability, of which he is one. Letter home today inviting him in a visit to our local (excellent) university because he has been "identified as talented in one or more subjects"

Fantastic thar the school is arranging visits- it has only just started to send any kids to university at all. The school's catchment means that there are very few parents with more than a basic education, and they are pushing hArd to raise the aspirations of the kids- which is fantastic.

Dp and I have 4 degrees between us. Dd is at a Russell group university. Ds will definitely, if he wants to, go to university. It iseems ridiculous of the school to waste a space on this trip on ds. Should I say something? He's not particularly bothered- except that it means a day off school. If he doesn't go, they could give the space to someone that it might actually make a difference to. Surely they should have thought of this? What do I do? And is it depressing that even in a secondary modern school, privilege attracts privilege?

OP posts:
Cloud2 · 09/07/2015 12:07

This remind me another post which OP said she didn't know should she feel being offended that her DS has been offered this broadening access opportunity.

LaVolcan · 09/07/2015 12:23

Could we put this another way Bertrand? If your DS had got into the Grammar School and they offered a university visit, would you still want to say no?

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 09/07/2015 12:27

"This remind me another post which OP said she didn't know should she feel being offended that her DS has been offered this broadening access opportunity."

Was this incomprehensible post aimed at me?

I confess I hadn't actually thought about him going on the trip "pour encourager les autres"- surely that would be incredibly patronising? And I am sure it wouldn't have occurred to him either- so calling him selfish because he would rather do PE than "think of others and engage with the trip for the sake of his friends" is an extraordinarily unpleasant thing to do.

What I suspect they have done is just pick the ten highest achievers in year 9- the other couple of names DS told me got the letter certainly indicates that. Which, as I keep saying, seems a very odd way to go about broadening access. But I won't say anything about it- and he'll go. It will be very interesting to hear what he has to say about it afterwards.

Oh, and it is just the one trip- it's been in the school diary for ages.

OP posts:
titchy · 09/07/2015 12:34

OP you really really need to come to terms with the fact that your ds IS quite seriously disadvantaged and all the degrees in the world that you, his father, the milkman etc hold are not going to change the fact that his peers (who will shape his views more than you, whatever reassuring noises he makes) are low-aspiring, low achieving, and he will never receive optimal teaching at a secondary modern.

Stop navel gazing and send him on the bloody trip FFS.

What sort of message do you think it sends to him and the handful of other potential university aspiring kids if the kid with university educated parents doesn't even bother to visit the local university.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 09/07/2015 12:34

"Could we put this another way Bertrand? If your DS had got into the Grammar School and they offered a university visit, would you still want to say no?"

I would have thought it a bit odd in year 9. However the purpose of trips to universities in grammar and secondary modern schools are very different. Grammar schools, as ar as I am aware, do not in general need to encourage their pupils to apply to university. They do not in general have parents who are actively opposed to their children applying for higher education, or pupils who suffer from generations of poverty of aspiration.

OP posts:
Original poster
BertrandRussell · 09/07/2015 12:35

"and he will never receive optimal teaching at a secondary modern"

Utter, utter bollocks.

OP posts:
Original poster
BertrandRussell · 09/07/2015 12:45

are low-aspiring, low achieving, and he will never receive optimal teaching at a secondary modern."

Sorry, cut and paste fail - obviously the low aspiring low achieving bit is hollocks too, not just the bit about the teaching.

OP posts:
LaVolcan · 09/07/2015 12:55

I would have thought that year 9 was a good year for any young person to visit a university, of whatever background. It would give them the chance to find out the differing course requirements and one would hope, stop them making silly GCSE choices which close doors for them.

aginghippy · 09/07/2015 12:59

It's not unusual to have university visits in y9. My dd went on one.

Besides the thing about GCSE choices LaVolcan mentions, it might inspire them to work hard at their GCSEs so they have a better chance of getting the grades they need to get there.

RashDecision · 09/07/2015 13:02

I think you're overthinking it. Very altruistic of you - would you ask your DS to give up his place on the football team to broaden access for a less sporty child?

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 09/07/2015 13:03

Really? I didn't know that year 9 visits were a thing. Haven't most people made their GCSE choices by this stage in year 9 anyway?

OP posts:
outtolunchagain · 09/07/2015 13:07

OP without meaning to sound patronising I remember how your ds was "bound to pass" the 11 plus and your shock when he didn't . You have brilliantly supported him in the high school , however you never know where life may turn . Your ds is only 13/14 peer group pressure really sets in in the next couple of years and he may change his ideas .

I am afraid turning down the place can be perceived however not intentioned as patronising . You will say you are freeing up a place for a more disserving child others may see it as you believing your family to be too good for this opportunity.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 09/07/2015 13:08

"would you ask your DS to give up his place on the football team to broaden access for a less sporty child?" No- but I wouldn't expect him to get a place on a LEA funded sports camp for disadvantaged children either.........

OP posts:
PerspicaciaTick · 09/07/2015 13:10

Some pps have said that it is up to the OP to decide what to do.

I absolutely disagree in this situation. I feel that the OPs DS is the only person who should be deciding if he wants to go and if he feels it might be a useful experience. Deciding on his behalf is unnecessary and controlling.

RashDecision · 09/07/2015 13:24

"LEAfunded sports camp for disadvantaged children"

Is someone only disadvantaged if their parents don't have money or degrees?

RashDecision · 09/07/2015 13:27

So you wouldn't expect him to give up his place on the football team for a less able child who may need a confidence boost with sport, but he could give up a place on a trip to a sports camp?

ChocolateWombat · 09/07/2015 13:36

Just because parents have been to Uni, there is no guarantee their children will, or that they will get the grades for a good one.
I don't know if the OP is in a superselective area or not, nor what proportion of the kids at her sec modern get the grades to go to top Unis, but it is likely to be less than in a non grammar school area. For that reason, her son needs every opportunity to raise his aspirations - he may well be at school where there is a less strong work ethic and despite the family having a background of Uni and privilege (whatever that means) they will have to work hard to compensate for the day-to-day experience of not being in a real academic setting. The fact he would rather do PE than go on the trip might say to me, that he isn't as committed to getting to Uni and the years of work ahead of him before it can happen as he might be - he should go and he and his parents should seize every opportunity given - children in the grammars and independents will be seizing opportunities - it doesn't matter if it is called a course for broadening access or for talented children or for state school children or whatever - it is a chance to widen his horizons and something that will help him think about his personal future, not the past of his parents.

I suspect the kind of people who tend to say 'no' to offers of such a day out, are the parents of children they are particularly aimed at - those who can't see the value or think it is not for their child. For slightly different reasons, the OP is in danger of putting herself in the refuser camp with those parents. That really wouldn't be providing her son with privilege would it!

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 09/07/2015 13:48

"So you wouldn't expect him to give up his place on the football team for a less able child who may need a confidence boost with sport, but he could give up a place on a trip to a sports camp?"

Are you deliberately misunderstanding me? I would not expect him to give up his place in a team to a less able child if he was fairly selected. However, our LEA runs sporting activities specifically targeted at children who come from disadvantqged backgrounds. I would not expect my child to go to one of these camps. Because he does not come from a disadvantqged background. The point of this university trip is to show children who might not consider university an option for their future that it is a real, attainable goal. Ds knows that already. So ideally, in my opinion, the place should go to a child who does not know that, and comes from a background where thereis nobody to tell them that, and, indeed, might tell them the exact opposite.

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 09/07/2015 13:56

Bertrand
The chances of it being a life changing opportunity for my child are vanishingly small.
You misinterpreted my thinking.
Its just as likely that your son will visit and think
bollocks to Mother's planning, I'll become a plumber
Life can change in lots of directions.

The school have the full information set.
You do not.

My kids have grown up in and around a campus - they still go to every event that is offered to them. It would be daft not to.

TheWordFactory · 09/07/2015 13:57

I don't think a school can be expected to know which DC have no one supporting university education and which do.

The reality is that they know their pupils are at a disadvantage and that's enough.

TalkinPeace · 09/07/2015 14:00

Word
I don't think a school can be expected to know which DC have no one supporting university education and which do.
State schools have exactly that information.
They ask for it at the 6th form college when planning access to trips and days and stuff.
DD has already been turned down for two university events because of DH's and my degrees - even though she has been at comps right through.

titchy · 09/07/2015 14:06

No they don't talkin! The state school my dcs are at does not hold any information about mine or dh's educational background. Your sixth form may ask for it, but don't assume 11-16 schools have that data.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 09/07/2015 14:11

"Its just as likely that your son will visit and think
bollocks to Mother's planning, I'll become a plumber"

Yep. He has the opportunity to do that every day.

This might be the one chance for a child who has never even thought about university to think "bollocks to what my family says, I want to come here"

OP posts:
BrendaBlackhead · 09/07/2015 14:24

I did not fill in any information about me or dh on the sixth form form. None of their business!

Ds eliminated himself from the Sutton Trust application based on parental background.

TheWordFactory · 09/07/2015 14:30

talkin most state schools do not routinely ask for parental education or employment or salary etc.

Certainly the schools I visit most often do not have that sort of profile.
They know post code, FSM, ability ranges.