Right. Tell me what to do here- key words- 11+, g&t, University, widening access......

[BertrandRussell]

Ds is at a secondary modern school. 7% high ability, of which he is one. Letter home today inviting him in a visit to our local (excellent) university because he has been "identified as talented in one or more subjects"

Fantastic thar the school is arranging visits- it has only just started to send any kids to university at all. The school's catchment means that there are very few parents with more than a basic education, and they are pushing hArd to raise the aspirations of the kids- which is fantastic.

Dp and I have 4 degrees between us. Dd is at a Russell group university. Ds will definitely, if he wants to, go to university. It iseems ridiculous of the school to waste a space on this trip on ds. Should I say something? He's not particularly bothered- except that it means a day off school. If he doesn't go, they could give the space to someone that it might actually make a difference to. Surely they should have thought of this? What do I do? And is it depressing that even in a secondary modern school, privilege attracts privilege?

The average 4 bed estate type house in Aylesbury and North Bucks is less than that Brenda. There is a big difference between North, middle and the "leafy" South! I am not sure thousands flock to Bucks now because more and more children are living outside Bucks and gaining grammar school places without needing to move into the county. For example lots of children access the Aylesbury and Buckingham grammar schools who live in Milton Keynes which is a different LA. I think lots of grammar schools do have a higher proportion of non-white British children because academically they do well and it is poor British whites who do less well. Hence the lack of social mobility amongst this group.

I was interested in the fact that the Kent secondary modern has so few higher attainers in comparison to the Bucks schools though - given that they are both slective counties. Plenty of Bucks schools have 22-32% higher attainers - even ones I did not think would have!

I do hail from the leafiest bit of the south! Sadly (or perhaps not sadly) I could never afford to move back to where I grew up, let alone to my parent's old house. Serious hedge fund income required for that now.

Even when I went to school there were people who moved there specifically for the grammar schools. One family moved into a house directly opposite favoured school and mother told my dm how handy it was going to be. The dd did not pass. Five minutes later many posters started appearing in their windows about banning 12+ (as it was then) and the dh became a pillar of the Liberal Party which locally was anti-grammar school. In my area those who didn't pass either went private or went to a "leafy" secondary modern a stop or two on train line. The nearest secondary modern was not for locals!

Years ago, before court judgements, Bucks could keep the grammar schools for Bucks children. This is no longer the case and the rush to Bucks has declined! My area had hardly anyone who went private if they did not pass. One girl in my primary year group. No-one else had the money in the far North!!!! The nearest secondary modern had to suffice for the rest, and it definitely was not "leafy". CSEs only there!

Actually almost a third (29%) of grammar school places allocated by Bucks CC went to out of county children this year.

Bucks probably isn't a good choice of county to compare with Kent; it's very small geographically and easily accessible whereas Kent has some fairly remote towns with grammar schools (smaller population and those who pass the test get a place which accounts for fewer 'high attainers' at the modern?) Bucks only has a KS4 cohort of 5,670 whereas Kent's is 16,320. Bucks fsm rate is 6.5% (14% in the last 6 years) but Kent's is higher at 12.1% (23% in the last 6 years.)

If you look at Hampshire (which is fully comprehensive) there are only 4 state schools in the entire county where 'high attainers' get average GCSE grades of A (A-). Now this could mean that comprehensive schools are generally not good for 'high attainers' or the term 'high attainer' means nothing more than 'above average' and we need to make more distinction within the Level 5 band.

I'm pretty sure the op's ds doesn't go to the C- school by the way.

In Kent, if you pass the test you get a grammar place. That's why Kent High schools don't have many high attainers.

Is that true though? I'm sure there is at least one person here whose child passed the 11+ but didn't get a place because of distance/paucity of grammars in striking distance of her village.

I've never heard of anyone not getting a place in a grammar school even if it wasn't the one they wanted. I suppose there might be cases where particular circumstances made it impossible, but the system is certainly intended to work like that.

The pass mark is adjusted slightly every year to make sure there are the same number of passers and places.

At least Bucks is a shire county with a selective system so about the only comparison that can be made! These are a rare breed. It is clear there are differences between Kent and Bucks which affects the distribution of high achievers. I thought maybe more high achievers got into the Kent Grammar schools via the test leaving the 'high" schools short of high attainers. I tend to think the high achievers is a wide group and, as I said earlier, it is possibly the lower end of the high attainers in the secondary schools although no 11 plus system accurately chooses the "right" children every year.

So how many Kent Secondary schools have 7% high attainers? Can't be that many!

Just to add that obviously in Bucks, high attainer definitely does not guarantee a grammar school place. Although I have always thought that higher attainers who have less proactive parents with less money could get a place if they had been coached. Some children in the more deprived "pockets" in Bucks do not get a level playing field and it has always been unfair. Some primary schools have plenty of high attainers but only get one or two into a grammar school every year. More needs to be done to help those children. As some middle attainers get grammar school places, presumably it's the coaching that makes the difference.

I looked up the first 6 Kent high schools I could remember the names of, and got 17%, 8%, 11%, 8%, 13% and 6 % high attainers. 10%ish average.

Bertrand. Hillview Tonbridge 28% high 62% GCSE High ability grade average B.

However, look at St Georges Gravesend 18%FSM 17% High ability students yet achieves 67% *** GCSE with an average high ability student getting B.

This proves it is possible to achieve high standards , despite being in a deprived area that operates a selective education system !.

I think those schools are exceptions sunshield, to be fair.

Hillview is girls only, and in an affluent area.

Gravesend is hardly deprived. And the school you have chosen is a church school.

The difference is that mine were genuinely randomly selected.

I've not heard of anyone in Kent passing and not getting a grammar place. But it's a BIG county, and some children are offered schools a very long way away, impossible by public transport. Not their closest grammars, as they are full, but ones maybe 15 -20 miles away.

Yup St George's Garvesend has a very strict admissions oversubscription criteria and other than looked after children, it's all about church attendance and Christianity. Hardly non selective!

I know of Hillview because my elder sister considered it for her youngest DD, but choose Weald of Kent instead. DN though quite possibly could go to Hillview for 6th Form because of the Visual Arts 'specialism'.

I don't know St George's Gravesend , but just looking at Wikipedia it has been a school since 1580 ! so it must be the oldest "modern" school in the world ?.....

St George's is a faith school, not a secondary modern. Hillview is a girl's chool with a performing arts specialism in an affluent area with a surprisingly low number of lower ability children. Also not a secondary modern.

Interesting choice of examples............

If they are not Grammar schools or Modern schools, they must be Comprehensive schools!.

This of course cannot be correct, because Kent does not have Comprehensives outside a small strip south of Tunbridge Wells !.

A faith school is a faith school. It has a specific selection criteria. It's therefore not a comprehensive. It is not open to all.