Right. Tell me what to do here- key words- 11+, g&t, University, widening access......

[BertrandRussell]

Ds is at a secondary modern school. 7% high ability, of which he is one. Letter home today inviting him in a visit to our local (excellent) university because he has been "identified as talented in one or more subjects"

Fantastic thar the school is arranging visits- it has only just started to send any kids to university at all. The school's catchment means that there are very few parents with more than a basic education, and they are pushing hArd to raise the aspirations of the kids- which is fantastic.

Dp and I have 4 degrees between us. Dd is at a Russell group university. Ds will definitely, if he wants to, go to university. It iseems ridiculous of the school to waste a space on this trip on ds. Should I say something? He's not particularly bothered- except that it means a day off school. If he doesn't go, they could give the space to someone that it might actually make a difference to. Surely they should have thought of this? What do I do? And is it depressing that even in a secondary modern school, privilege attracts privilege?

And OP your posts do have a sense of you somehow as lady bountiful looking out for the peasants on your estate. You might not I tend it to come across like that, but the number of people on this thread who have seen it like this, should make you question if everyone is wrong and consider how you are coming across to people, even if it is not your intention.

It doesn't matter on here, but in real life, such an attitude could be very offensive.

It is not your job to decide who goes and who doesn't. Perhaps the school feels that your son would benefit hugely from the course, for whatever reason.

Bertrand knowing what he wants really isn't enough.

Surely your expereinces around the 11+ have taught you that assumptions of entrenched privilege don't always work out how you imagined.

All four of my grandparents went to University, as did both of my parents and all of my siblings.
DH and I both have degrees and postgrad qualifications.
DH has an honorary post at an RG University.

My kids go to any University event they are offered
because they are their own people with their own minds

It would be out of order for me to prejudge their choices.

So are you saying that my child will get as much from this trip as a child without his privileges? That there are not children for whom this trip might be a life changing opportunity?

Bertrand
It might be a life changing opportunity for your child too.
Please do not be so arrogant as to prejudge both your child and others.
The school know who they have picked.
You only know one of the names.

My DC have the privilege of regularly visiting Oxford, and have visited colleges since they were babies.

If any of them were offered the chance of visiting Oxford or Cambridge as part of a school trip - I would jump at the opportunity. As although others may never have even visited, out of my children only 1 might even consider themselves to be "oxbridge material".

By visiting the local University, your son could find a new interest or area he wants to discover.

At my DCs' privileged schools visiting the local University is something they have all done at various times. One first went with school when she was 10! They regularly go to lectures and other events there.

At my somewhat deprived school it was still pretty usual to visit the local Poly. It should be a normal part of every pupil's life. So you should be asking why they are not going more often, rather than if your son needs the visit.

It is impossible to say who would gain most from such a trip. My brother takes teenagers on such visits and has said that sometimes those from very deprived backgrounds, however bright they are, go on such visits and just feel over whelmed and out of place, whilst often those from more affluent backgrounds who haven't really given their future lots of thought (like most teenagers) have gained a lot.
It is impossible to say for us, but also for you too. The people in the best position to make that judgement are the school because they know more about the range of children, whereas we don't and you don't and actually even the school can't totally accurately predict who will gain the most from the day.
So you should trust their judgment and send your son.

Wouldn't it be a pity if he missed out on something that could be really useful for him, because of your over thinking of this. Is the issue for you really that you are so keen to ensure everyone from a less privileged background has equal access (are you doing other things to achieve this end - I guess you must be if it is so close to your heart) or is it that you don't want your 'privileged' son lumped in with the less privileged? The fact is, he is at a school with a low number of high achievers and low record of university applications - this does make his experiences different to the majority who will go to Uni and so despite your educational background, he still stands to benefit from more exposure to the things he might not get at school.

Take every opportunity offered - I assure you, that the children I teach in a selective independent school with an impressive record of university admissions would jump at any opportunity like this, rather than seeing it as not for their kind of people.

"Bertrand
It might be a life changing opportunity for your child too.
Please do not be so arrogant as to prejudge both your child and others"

The chances of it being a life changing opportunity for my child are vanishingly small. The chances of it being life changing for a child for whom the idea of going to university has never crossed their mind before are much higher.

It that's arrogance then I'll take the hit!

The thing is, it doesn't have to be 'life changing' to be useful.
Your son could go on this and find it inspires him. Or not. Another child could go and find he feels totally uncomfortable and hates the idea of university and it confirms that he will go to work. Or not.

I'm not sure anyone has agreed with your judgement about this. But you don't seem willing to consider what people are saying, so it does make me wonder why you asked in the first place, if your thinking about this isn't even slightly flexible and open to influence from others.

Is it that you are enjoying disagreeing with everyone, but will send your son on the course anyway?

Will be interested to know if he actually goes or not.

"So your saying my child will get as much out of the trip as a child without privileges?"
Now you really are coming over as arrogant and superior if I made this kind of comment the anti independent ed brigade would be firing of comments left right and centre.
He may not get exactly the same thing out of it as his peers but he might get other things out of it that are equally valid. That's assuming of course that he doesn't go with an arrogant superior attitude but instead an open enquiring mind and listens carefully to what is said.
If my DS2 had had a similar opportunity I would have happily let him go and at his school all go to top universities. In fact I'm rather irritated that one top university has special days to encourage state educated children to consider a subject DS is interested in and he's not allowed to go. He too has a right to decide if this is the right subject for him regardless of his educational background.

OK, the key Q here is, are numbers on the trip limited?

You need to call the school and ask.

Because your premise is that by DS going on a trip which will be mildly beneficial to him (even if he prefers PE), he is depriving someone else of a trip which may be hugely beneficial to them.

If that premise is false, just send him. As others have said, he'll get something out of it out one way or another.

Seriously Bertrand you're making far too many assumptions about your own son and the other DC picked to go on the outing.

He's only in year 9! This is exactly when school groups should be visiting universities. Surely you can understand that things don't always work out as planned. Look at the 11 plus result!
Do you know the background of every other participant on the trip?

Bertrand I'm genuinely curious, as I suspect so are others, as to why you regularly name change and then make yourself very identifiable by your various postings. Surely the pint of name changing is to protect your identity? Or am I missing something here?

I accept your claim that this has got nothing to do with you wanting to underline how different your DS is to everyone else at your school (something you have said many times on many many threads). But surely you can see that this is how it will look - to your DS, to his school fellows and to the staff at the school? And that in itself is surely going to be a problem? My DC was invited to an outreach day at Cambridge for her subject aimed at state school pupils. I went to cambridge, so the idea of cambridge isn't 'alien' to her, it seems if not normal then at least not an impossible dream for state school pupils (I was educated at a state school which by any measure is not as 'good' as the state school she is at). She still went on the outreach day. Because she was invited, and it applied to her. She is a state school pupil, it was a day for state school pupils. Your DS has been invited to a day for kids from his school (and others?) who are good at a particular subject. He goes to that school, he is good at that subject, the day is aimed at HIM. He should go.

If all the pupils identified by school as university material have been offered a place and your DS isn't taking it from another pupil, I would send him. I agree that it's really likely he will go anyway and this won't be a turning point in that way but any trip to university at this age helps them think about what's next. My dd went to many universities in yr 12 to choose which ones to put on application form but she would have loved to have found out a bit more about universities in general and what kinds of courses they offered beforehand. She was also excited to see what the halls of residence looked like and speak to students on various versions of the course she finally chose.

DS on the other hand cba to do much but went to a couple of open days in yr12 with school and realised that if he'd pulled his finger out earlier he would have a much better chance of getting into the course he eventually chose part way through yr 12 which was not at all connected to what he had thought all way through school.

And they have four parents ( 2 steps and 2 birth) with a first degree each and I have 2 post grad qualifications.

The more exposure to university the better I think

OP do you actually plan for DS to visit any universities? If so how will you facilitate this.
Also how far are you planning to be 'selfless', if DS gets a place at uni and there's another suitably qualified student from a deprived background, would you think DS should turn down his offer in order that a more deserving applicant might get the place because it would be a more of a life changing experience for the other DC?

"So your saying my child will get as much out of the trip as a child without privileges?"
Now you really are coming over as arrogant and superior if I made this kind of comment the anti independent ed brigade would be firing of comments left right and centre"

Happygardening, if your child took a place on any activity that was intended for children with less privilege and you tried to pretend that your child would get just as much out of it as anyone else, i can assure you that I, for one, would call you out on it.

I wasn't, by the way, aware that I had to run my name change decisions past a committee. And I do find it a little.......odd......that you of all people should ask me that question.

So you start a thread called Right. Tell me what to do here. Everyone (as far as I can see) who posts on the thread tells you to let ds go on the university visit. Some have given really well thought out reasons why they think so. You have your mn answer. It's still up to you to decide what to do.

Bertrand if my DS has been iinvited in year 8 to visit a local outstanding university. I would have been delighted and hoped that he would have got something very valuable out of it. He might have got different things out of it than a child with "less privilege" but it because he wouldn't have got the same thing didn't mean it's not equally of value.
For children from all backgrounds the decision to go to university is perhaps no longer black and white. Many at schools on the other end of the spectrum to your DS's are going because they are expected to go, I'm not convinced all have a have wonderful positve time, I think many choose the wrong subjects and the wrong universities so any experiences any children can have before making their decisions can only be a good thing.

Sounds to me like he might be privileged in some ways and not others. Sounds like the school he is attending wouldn't count as a school for the privileged - so he qualifies,because he goes there. In terms of being invited,that is all there is to it. He meets the criteria.

As others have said, the more visits of this kind for ALL students the better - they all need to go and see with their own eyes - being told about it by the parents with Xdegrees doesn't replace the going for themselves. Seize the opportunity with both hands.

And I find it extremely odd that someone would ask for everyone's opinions with absolutely no intention of listening to or acknowledging the very valid points which have been made over and over again. Perhaps university is about learning to ask a question with an open mind and then to formulate ones opinion based on all of the evidence and being prepared to change ones mind if the evidence suggests it is necessary, rather than being determined to defend a position regardless.

And this thread makes me wonder about your son too. Is he very aware that he is 'different' to the other children at his school? Kids do often get a bit of a sense of having a different background, but I think it is far less than we as adults imagine it. So, at the expensive school I work in, children from extremely affluent backgrounds mix happily with those on full bursaries - and the kids are interested in whether someone is fun and if they are sporty and what they are like as a person. They don't talk about how many degrees their parents have or what jobs they do.
If your son is very aware of his difference, it may well be because you have made him very aware of it - probably not beneficial really. And actually, at the end of the day,perhaps he isn't so very different to the others anyway - they are all there together having the same schooling experience.

And I would be delighted for ds to go on a trip to a university too. The point here is that this particular trip is part of a broadening access programme. That is why I think that another child might well benefit more than him.

I presume your ds's school does not run a special programme to increase the participation in university education of that vastly underrepresented group- public school boys?

Yes, whoever asked- places are limited. They are going on the minibus and it only has 10 seats.

Having read all the posts, I stand by my original comment in that no-one actually knows whether the school has invited all possible children onto this trip, or not. One has to assume they have.

I think if a child comes from a family that is very used to university life, I really cannot see why that child cannot encourage and support others who may be less sure about their destination after school. Only on the tv last night there were lots of young people agonising over the "cost" of university and not understanding the loans system and repayment terms. Whilst year 9 is quite early to think about university, a great deal of work needs to be done amongst the less well off to persuade them that they can go to university. A child who has a positive view of university education is surely a bonus on this trip and should have a positive view of the school's intentions. He should be encouraged to think about the others who are going with him. The fact he would rather do pe looks a bit selfish and it is a shame that he appears unwilling to engage with the admirable reasons for the trip, for the sake of his friends.

There may be more than one trip!!! There may only be 10 suitable candidates at this particular time. You are obviously determined to deny him the place, so I think you had better go with your instincts, and not follow the advice of the vast majority if people here.

Bertrand - I think you still haven't really faced up to the fact that your DS is at a sec mod. He is exactly the sort of person that a broadening access scheme is aimed at - a child at a sec mod. It will be important to his school that he does well and takes the opportunities that are offered to him so that other parents as put out as you were by their kids going there can see that their kids won't be as disadvantaged by going there as they fear. You are potentially doing a lot more people than just your DS a disservice by rejecting the opportunities that come his way on the grounds that he is 'different'. He isn't different - he's a pupil at that school and just as entitled to perks for pupils at that school as any other pupil at that school.