St Paul's Girls' School spgs

[Oceanicflight815]

I'm getting really tired of reading the negative comments about SPGS on here. I have a dd there and we think the school is fantastic. When we were faced with making choices after the 11+, I was so worried about all the hearsay that I seriously considered not accepting the offer. How was my normal, sporty dd going to cope with robotic, hot-housed, ultra-competitive, over-tutored, super-indulged, bitchy girls who wear obscenely short shorts? I'm so happy now that we gave it a chance.

"Well I never wanted my dd to go there", is a comment that offer holders will hear many times from people whose dd has missed the cut, even though you know that prior to the 11+, they would have sold their soul for a place. Naive people like me eventually work out that the negative comments are just the bitter taste of sour grapes.

My dd went to a school that prepared the children for the 11+ but there was no tutoring except for some who were struggling. As a poster has recently written, the school watches your child from the first day they walk in the door. They have test scores stretching for years. They know exactly what is going on and there is no way the Head will jeapordise their relationship with any of the secondary schools by recommending a child they feel is not right for that school. If it helps you to believe that my child spent all her young years being tutored, fine, but you are wrong with her and also for the huge majority of SPGS girls. They are genuinely clever girls. I understand the need to tutor if you are not coming from a private school. However, if you are at a prep school and are tutoring in the hope getting a place, you are making a serious mistake. Your dd will be happier at a different school. There are girls who make it through thanks to a tutor and they do struggle. Equally, you can dismiss the idea that prep schools over prepare the kids. If that was the case, they'd all be at spgs but they are not.

We live in West London and so we know classmates and friends' children at virtually every school here. There is absolutely no difference in the amount of homework my dd brings home compared to any of them. Content yes, amount no. Hot-housing clearly not. You need to let go of that myth too. There is plenty of time for clubs, after school activities, meeting friends, or just lying around watching television.

I find it insulting that my lovely dd is branded as robotic. She is a wonderful girl and I can't see anything in her personality that you would describe as robotic. I know all the girls in her tutor group and they are all really lovely girls that you be very proud to call your own. There was a bitchy super competive girl at her prep and that girl was not offered a place at spgs even though academically she would have been fine. I suspect that these sort of girls are being weeded out at interview. The girls at spgs seem to be confident in their own abilities. They are content within themselves. They know that they all got into the school for a reason and there is no need to prove their superiority to anyone. They are just friends.

Pushy parents, sure. No doubt I'm one. Unfortunately, you have to be in a West London. I do want what is best for my children. I want them to reach their potential. And I know the parents at my prep were the same as me and their children went to a whole range of schools so you've got the same parents at every school.

As for short shorts, that's just an additional ridiculous argument against the school. yes, there are a few. I see the girls are nearby schools rolling their skirts up. They are all teenagers. A poster suggested you stand outside the school gates and see the skimpy outfits worn by spgs girl. instead, you will see jeans, hoodies, and leggings. Half of them are in their sports kit. And they do have a really nice (but expensive) sports kit.

Yes of course there will be issues but they are the same issues as all schools around here face. If you are stressed and over anxious, it would not have mattered if you went to spgs, g&l, Lu, leh, fh, nh, clsh, nlc etc. All these schools and many more are great schools who are aiming at good results. Sex, drugs, fingers crossed yet to go there, but any story told to you third hand about spgs will apply to any school. I've got a ds elsewhere and all I can say about pastoral care is that it is far superior at spgs, as is their communication with parents and opportunities for parental involvement.

So good luck to you with your upcoming offers. Accept spgs if you feel it is right for your dd. Accept leh if that is, especially if you live near it. Keep the commute in mind, it is really important. They are all great schools around here. Ignore all the sour grapes, not just about spgs but about whichever school you choose. And if you were desperate for an offer from school but miss out, be happy for those that got in. It's ok to be disappointed. Feel sad and then make the best of what is offered. Congratulate your child, they did a great job in a very tough and stressful situation. I wish them nothing but the very best.

As a mother of two toddlers in Scotland with absolutely no agenda or vested interest in the matter, please let me point out that referring to a school girl as "bitchy" is revolting.

Well said OP. This doesn't directly relate to me but there is a similar school locally branded as a hothouse! As you say usually by those who would have given their right arm for the child to go there but weren't successful in securing a place. The children were selected on their ability but are just normal children and the school is doing what they should do for children selected on the basis of their academic ability.

can i just say that i seriously considered SPGS for DD1. I didn't apply in the end as it would have been an hour on the 33 bus and then a 15 minute walk which i felt was just way too much. I hadn't been put off by any comments on here, sure i had read about the "short shorts" but it was no more insulting than the comments about LEH and their scruffy uniform. By the way i absolutely ADORE the SPGS sports kit when i saw it in our local uniform shop! We are blessed with amazing schools in SW/W London. It is a hard decision to choose a school hence why we all come on here, but please don't think we take comments with anything but a pinch of salt. DD has an offer from SHS and KGS, since the rejection letters came out i am hearing a lot of negativity about both schools and a lot of bigging up our state (albeit fantastic) secondaries. Funny that. Don't take it to heart. Good to hear your DD is thriving. I think mine would have to, just wish we lived in Barnes!

OP I understand your frustration if your daughter is a naturally bright and happy Paulina. On the other hand, you must agree that the school does imbue a certain sense of superiority in many of its pupils. Always has, always will - and don't start me on the boys school. I was at a party recently with lots of teenagers from London indies. They mixed really well, except for the kids from SP and SPGS who went off in a huddle together despite the fact some of them had never met before. This did not go unnoticed by the others. Having said this, it may not either apply to your DD or bother you if it does. Although there are plenty of examples of sour grapes on this site, there are also many people like me, who have visited the school and don't like its ethos.

OP - multiply what you have said by 10, and then you will know what it's like having a DS at Eton .

Indeed, Indrid. I hear/read so much nonsense about Eton. People seem to forget that it's just a school and is populated by 1300 boys who eat, sleep, burp, fart and are often disorganised. Just like all other adolescents.

Not entirely sure why this bothers you so much that you would post an epic rant to strangers on t'interweb about it? Do you get this worked up about every life choice you've made that other people might not agree with?

Seriously op how can you get so worked up about that?! No one has attacked you or your daughter personally. I think lots of mothers become so obsessed about their precious offspring that they lose a sense of perspective. All schools have good and bad but I also believe that there is no smoke without fire.
My daughter chose LEH over St. Paul's, primarily because of the space, having a less urban feel etc. The journey time was also a massive factor for us. I liked the school but must admit I preferred LEH. My daughter has said that when it comes to galas and sports fixtures that they hate playing St. Paul's because 'they love themselves'. She also says that they are the only school that don't mix and talk to the girls when they have fixtures. She is 12, make of that what you will but I find that really quite sad. I can assure you, I'm certainly not bitter or jealous and perhaps that statement by yourself in itself exudes a level of superiority or even perceived superiority on your part.

You love your child's school. It's very prestigious, sought after and gets amazing results.

Really, why would you write such a load of defensive spiel about it if you're so happy?

You really don't do yourself or the school any favours.

Great responses proving the OP's point.

I wish more people shared experiences of their children's schools instead of commenting on schools they don't have children at.

I don't care why OP posted, I think it's genuinely useful to prospective parents.

MN164 I could understand a short post along the lines of "we were warned x,y and z about SPGS, but have found it not to be the case and DD is thriving there. Just thought I'd share in case others were being put off by a really under served reputation".

That is not what we were treated to.

I could have posted something similar about my dc's prep school - but to be honest I just sucked it up and was happy with my choice. To have come on here and written such an long, angry defence of the school is just.... odd.

OP - a word of warning though. there is no smoke without fire. Although I spent years declaring that the school we chose wasn't a pushy hothouse, I am now finding out (as dc enter the crunch 11+ preparation years) that in fact it is.

I prefer to focus on substance, not form.

Feel free to post what and how you like here. It's a public forum, subject to sensible moderation.

MN164, which posts proves op's points? People are expressing their opinions or is everyone just supposed to agree with posts, I didn't realise that that was how debates worked.

Perhaps mine? Evidently proving my sour grapes and bitterness...

It does give me the (unintentional) impression that SPGS parents are somewhat paranoid sensitive people.

No, the post was weird and incredibly defensive, arguing back before the argument actually started.

Apologies for my post, I knew I would be in trouble. A couple of years ago, my dd was in a situation of holding some offers an we did not know which way to go. We knew no one at spgs to find out what was fact or fiction. So the purpose of my rant was simply help anyone else who might be in the same situation. I nearly passed on the offer because I believed what I heard until a chance meeting with a parent. At no point did I claim it was the greatest school ever and in fact I said pick a school with a good commute. Just don't listen to what people with no daughters there have to say. As two people have rightly pointed out, this applies to all schools. It is very hard to pick between schools based on open days. Just trying to be helpful.......obviously failed.

I was actually one of the people who commented on the thread that rattled OPs cage that OP refers to. I think the overwhelming gist was exactly what she says in her last para. OP has picked on a few comments amongst many that were more balanced.

The only comment I made that was consistent with OPs reaction was highlighting the fact that SPGS was the only West London school to my knowledge that responded to GCSE deflation by making girls who did not get A retake. As a parent I would have been annoyed by that piling on of pressure / distraction just as they were moving on to focus on the greater challenge and interest of AS. Intellectually questionable as well. I would be interested in OP*s perspective?

Of course these schools are not a homogenous mass, but they do have a particular ethos and culture that DDs will know if they are comfortable with or not (providing that parents value and respect their judgement rather than valuing the school's name and place in the league tables). Even the most negative comments though did reflect some aspects of the SPGS ethos and culture, not the experience for all the pupils but some. Quite right that all the schools share a catchment of teenage South West London DDs who manifest a range of issues, from short shorts to mental illness, often rooted in parenting rather than school. My own DDs had entirely different experiences at the same school because of the prevalence of those, originating in the home with some truly heart breaking scandalous backstories, issues in the cohort in one year. I am sure that like Trip Advisor most parents will read all these comments with an appreciation of that fact (though I suspect that most parents of those lovely 11 year olds have no idea of what is to come or some of the extreme aspects of teenage culture) and the writer's subjectivity.

I would say though that these schools, by virtue of being top of league tables, are a target for those who indulge in competitive parenting, and whose DDs do have these issues to a greater extent. Self esteem issues are common for Girls who feel, rightly or wrongly, that parental love is conditional upon achieving, in entry to these schools, academic results, Oxbridge, being "popular", narrow targets for success. There is definitely a correlation between DDs having been targeted at certain schools and the extent to which some girls at those schools, lacking in self esteem, indulge in exclusive attention seeking cliquey behaviour, and worse manifest mental health problems. Anecdotes of eating disorders, wild behaviour, exclusive behaviour etc obviously do not reflect the whole school body but they do reflect an aspect of the culture (and I speak as a parent whose DDs are, of course, delightful and contemptuous of such behaviour).

When my DD moved to a less selective school she was amazed to find peers who respected difference and each other and celebrated each other's success. I had told her after comments by an Old Paulina, that she would only ever experience that alpha girl culture again if she found herself in a women's prison.

And she got, if anything better academic results...............

So the OP has a child who passed a selection test to a school she is pleased with. Have a medal OP. Can we go back to what we were doing now?

No need to apologise, OP. Your post was a useful corrective to some recent remarks and quite rightly accentuated the positive about a school which is clearly exceptional.

However, your post did not address two issues which have been highlighted in recent threads: 1) the school's apparent obsession with public exam results at the expense of its intellectual traditions and reputation (as mentioned by Poisonwoodlife above) and 2) the profile and attitudes of its current High Mistress (eg the widely publicised "snowplough parents" comments, which prompted another SPGS parent to start a thread a couple of months ago).

As for defensiveness, don't worry, The Good Schools Guide's lengthy review of SPGS wins on that score. It may be relevant that the owner and editor of the Guide, Lord Lucas of Dingwall, is the brother of the Chairman of Governors of SPGS, the Hon Timothy Palmer, a connection which I don't believe is mentioned in the Guide.

I stand by the comments about short shorts (and skimpy tops). Not at this time of year obviously, but I suggest OP waits till mid-summer and then returns either to agree or disagree. The Lycee does not have uniform either, but the kids dress very differently.

Comments above are mainly about behaviours outside school, with people posting their own experience. Those posts certainly reflect my DDs experience, and perhaps suggest why there is a general unease. Whether meant or not, there is a sort of "you are only worthwhile if you are academically achieving and you can only be academically achieving if you are at SPGS" sort of attitude. I tend to agree with Poison that at least some of this comes from (some) parents rather than the school. Certainly SPGS seems to have its share of parents who seem very involved in their DDs education.

DD knows girls who are very happy at SPGS, probably happier than they would be elsewhere, and some who are not. She personally knows three in her age group, and knows of another couple, who left before year 12.

Horses for courses really. It is a school that clearly delivers a very sound education. That said before accepting a place I would want to be sure that a child really wanted to go there, as it could be a tough place if they did not. I would be concerned about the widespread perception that (some) girls from SPGS can be arrogant and cliquey. And I would think hard about whether a child will do better within a selective intake or might feel more comfortable with a broader range. Particuarly if a child might find themselves in the bottom third, yet could be in a top set elsewhere.

As far as sour grapes go... I suspect if you factor out the greater selectivity of SPGS, results are no better than the other very good schools in West London. Good students will do well at any of these schools. Results published in league tables are other children's results.

As Poison alluded to, there is a bit of a West London reshuffle at sixth form, providing a second opportunity to apply. We know several girls who took the opportunity to move from one school to another, but only one who even applied to SPGS, despite the terrific results. External perceptions amongst girls in the peer group are not that great.

FWIW DD also claims to have reguarly helped her SPGS friends with their homework, at least as much as they may have helped her. She is not convinced that content was any more challenging than she received from her school.

OP: I am very grateful for you post and find it very helpful in this confusing and heated debate.

DD just had an interview at SPGS and loved everything about it since the open day; I have doubts mainly due to the many negative comments on this and other fora. Don't want DD to grow up arrogant / stressed / without time for extra-curricular activities. While she loves the (real? myth?) feel of individualism & quirkiness. She is at a local state primary and had no tutoring but is super-competitive (at the moment competitiveness is directed at becoming an actress).

Reading positive comments about SPGS from someone who actually knows the school does not sound defensive, it provides a helpful balance, thank you OP! While I will leave the final choice to DD (if she gets an offer), I am less inclined now to try and dissuade her if she chooses SPGS.

yes OP I also found your comments very useful and interesting, as my DD may be facing that decision too. Thanks!

theintrepidfox - this really really isn't a heated debate, at least by MN standards! Trust your own opinion and your DD's. Just because it isn't right for my DD doesn't mean it's wrong for yours. Reading these boards is interesting, but it shouldn't really sway you one way or the other. Having said that, if you're the sort of person who is bothered by other people's opinions of SPGS then you may not be thick skinned enough to be a parent there!