St Paul's Girls' School spgs

[Oceanicflight815]

I'm getting really tired of reading the negative comments about SPGS on here. I have a dd there and we think the school is fantastic. When we were faced with making choices after the 11+, I was so worried about all the hearsay that I seriously considered not accepting the offer. How was my normal, sporty dd going to cope with robotic, hot-housed, ultra-competitive, over-tutored, super-indulged, bitchy girls who wear obscenely short shorts? I'm so happy now that we gave it a chance.

"Well I never wanted my dd to go there", is a comment that offer holders will hear many times from people whose dd has missed the cut, even though you know that prior to the 11+, they would have sold their soul for a place. Naive people like me eventually work out that the negative comments are just the bitter taste of sour grapes.

My dd went to a school that prepared the children for the 11+ but there was no tutoring except for some who were struggling. As a poster has recently written, the school watches your child from the first day they walk in the door. They have test scores stretching for years. They know exactly what is going on and there is no way the Head will jeapordise their relationship with any of the secondary schools by recommending a child they feel is not right for that school. If it helps you to believe that my child spent all her young years being tutored, fine, but you are wrong with her and also for the huge majority of SPGS girls. They are genuinely clever girls. I understand the need to tutor if you are not coming from a private school. However, if you are at a prep school and are tutoring in the hope getting a place, you are making a serious mistake. Your dd will be happier at a different school. There are girls who make it through thanks to a tutor and they do struggle. Equally, you can dismiss the idea that prep schools over prepare the kids. If that was the case, they'd all be at spgs but they are not.

We live in West London and so we know classmates and friends' children at virtually every school here. There is absolutely no difference in the amount of homework my dd brings home compared to any of them. Content yes, amount no. Hot-housing clearly not. You need to let go of that myth too. There is plenty of time for clubs, after school activities, meeting friends, or just lying around watching television.

I find it insulting that my lovely dd is branded as robotic. She is a wonderful girl and I can't see anything in her personality that you would describe as robotic. I know all the girls in her tutor group and they are all really lovely girls that you be very proud to call your own. There was a bitchy super competive girl at her prep and that girl was not offered a place at spgs even though academically she would have been fine. I suspect that these sort of girls are being weeded out at interview. The girls at spgs seem to be confident in their own abilities. They are content within themselves. They know that they all got into the school for a reason and there is no need to prove their superiority to anyone. They are just friends.

Pushy parents, sure. No doubt I'm one. Unfortunately, you have to be in a West London. I do want what is best for my children. I want them to reach their potential. And I know the parents at my prep were the same as me and their children went to a whole range of schools so you've got the same parents at every school.

As for short shorts, that's just an additional ridiculous argument against the school. yes, there are a few. I see the girls are nearby schools rolling their skirts up. They are all teenagers. A poster suggested you stand outside the school gates and see the skimpy outfits worn by spgs girl. instead, you will see jeans, hoodies, and leggings. Half of them are in their sports kit. And they do have a really nice (but expensive) sports kit.

Yes of course there will be issues but they are the same issues as all schools around here face. If you are stressed and over anxious, it would not have mattered if you went to spgs, g&l, Lu, leh, fh, nh, clsh, nlc etc. All these schools and many more are great schools who are aiming at good results. Sex, drugs, fingers crossed yet to go there, but any story told to you third hand about spgs will apply to any school. I've got a ds elsewhere and all I can say about pastoral care is that it is far superior at spgs, as is their communication with parents and opportunities for parental involvement.

So good luck to you with your upcoming offers. Accept spgs if you feel it is right for your dd. Accept leh if that is, especially if you live near it. Keep the commute in mind, it is really important. They are all great schools around here. Ignore all the sour grapes, not just about spgs but about whichever school you choose. And if you were desperate for an offer from school but miss out, be happy for those that got in. It's ok to be disappointed. Feel sad and then make the best of what is offered. Congratulate your child, they did a great job in a very tough and stressful situation. I wish them nothing but the very best.

I think all countries have more privileged sectors than others, it's just in the UK education is a clear divisor which distracts from other issues.

Intrepid fox- quirky always seems to be attributed to spgs and as someone else mentioned thats really open ended. The girls in dds form are all quite different but accepting and supportive of individuals interests and pursuits. My Dd spends lunchtime at dissecton and literary society whilst her friends are all sporty but they will all have lunch together, It really does cater for and encourages broad spectrum of personalities and interests. I wouldnt worry about your daughter not fitting in- the school does select girls who will get the most from the school.
My personal view is that the girls are articulate and openminded snd independant thinkers.
Sadly my dd is aware she is prejudged by parents of non spgs having been acosted st a bus stop and grilled about the school.
I wouldnt hesitate to say sccept if yr dds school think its the right environment and yr dd is offerred a place .
TBH at the moment I keep thinking its too good to be true!

Agreed mn164.

It was the superiority comment which got to me.

Stressed - thank you, that sounds really "quirky" in a good way. Tolerance of "quirkiness" and acceptance of differences is not just important for the "quirky" or the nerd, but also for the "cool" majority. I was "different" and brutally bullied because of it, and can already see signs in dd trying to suppress her "quirkiness" to blend in. Hopefully she can feel she can be both different and fit in at the same time.

Really sorry to hear your dd was accosted at a bus stop - that's sad (and reinforces the point about tolerance!) but I hope she is still happy at SPGS and will be throughout her time there.

"That is, of course, the classic debate about selective schools in the UK. Is it unfair on other children if"

Unfairness in relation to access to the more successful state schools is always smugly flourished at anyone objecting to the existence of private schooling and its distortion of our meritocracy, as though it provides a counter argument.

It doesn't. Discrimination by expensive catchment is unfair and discrimination by faith is unfair. The existence of the 11+ as a system of selection is unfair. But none is quite as unfair as selection according to parental income. Poor kids do still get into the most popular state schools, and faith schools, and grammar schools. However, unless they are astonishingly clever or talented and can get a rare full scholarship, or a 100% bursary (how many of those exist?) they will not get a sniff of the inside of a private school (except when they are having a day's visit as a charity case - like with our local gloriously equipped private school who invites the kids from my children's school for a single day's activities once a year, just so they can see what they're missing).

"There are choices, liberty and freedom to dispose of wealth as private individuals see fit, along with a private sector in education and health."

Yes - explain that without blushing to my 11 year old. Explain why it's acceptable to create and sustain a system which results in unfairness in relation to job opportunities and life chances, on the basis that adults must be free to spend their money how they wish.

mini if I were explaining what is unfair and not acceptable to my DCs I would be focussing on the extreme disparity between children in this country and those in other countries without access to free healthcare, education and living in a war zone. Life is unfair but it is often said in various threads by parents with DCs in state schools that private education is a waste of money particularly when there is a parent such as yourself who cares about education.

Wanting the best for your own children is not something parents should apologise for.

I grew up in a single parent household with very little money and no kind of "privilege", but I went to a state school in Germany, where private schools didn't exist at that time and received bursaries for uni and eventually a scholarship for Harvard. I may have been lucky that my mum believed in me, but other than that I had no "privilege" and no financial cushion, I worked throughout uni and have worked ever since.

Now a single mum myself, I choose to pay a very large proportion of my income for a private secondary for my daughter because I am convinced that the state school alternatives will not give her the same opportunities I had. And yes: of course this is a sad state of affairs which perpetuates existing elites and ever increases the gap between rich and poor. We all know that. But the way to change this is not to lambast the private sector, or those who opt for it so that their children can have the best chance in life. The way to change this is to vote for a government that will invest our tax in a better state system.

Love to explain and do to my kids. It's called politics. It's fascinating and is an area where many are convinced there is a "right" and a "wrong". I'll teach them politics, not partisan opinions, then they can make up their own mind - perhaps starting with why every other kids in their state primary has an iPad but they don't. "That's just not fair" I hear them cry .... "get used to it", I'm tempted to say.

Oh and BTW, you say faith selection is not as unfair as private selection. I disagree. Faith schools represent a much larger percentage of the education system and ask taxpayers to pay. Seems more unfair to me.

Also, why do you think it's so unfair to deny private schools to some/many students? Is it because you think they are "better" than state schools in some way ..... bit of an insult to state schools I'd suggest. Or perhaps that's the real issue, state schools standards needing to be better for everyone?

"Or perhaps that's the real issue, state schools standards needing to be better for everyone?"

I agree.

Lets raise taxes to pay for a doubling of the amount of money to be spent on state educated children, so it approaches that currently spent on your average privately educated child.

Because you don't expect state schools to provide an equivalent education for half the amount of money do you?

And maybe we can spread the really difficult to teach children fairly across the educational spectrum, rather than concentrating them in certain schools?

"Wanting the best for your own children is not something parents should apologise for."

No - but paying into and defending an unfair system that perpetuates both privilege and disadvantage, IS something to apologise for.

The bottom line is that adults are very happy to defend the 'life is unfair but so what if I'm winning' to each other. Most of you would find it incredibly embarrassing and shaming to try to explain and justify the system to a child - and you should be able to, because it's children who are most affected by it.

Minifingers - I agree entirely that we should pay more taxes for more investment in the state sector. Provided that is where our taxes go.. But this is not the private schools' fault, and paying a private school is not perpetuating an unfair system nor is it defending it. The existence of private schools in some countries (unknown in others) is a symptom, not a cause.

It is the government which holds the key to keep or reform this system, not the private sector which is merely filling a gaping hole. By paying a private school I don't weaken the state system, I (may) strengthen my dd's potential. With that potential comes social responsibility to others less fortunate. And I am happy to explain that to her.

minifingers

I also like to use the "thought experiment" of how things would be if all "selective schools" were banished. Those that could afford private schooling would now get free education, saving £200,000+ per child. There advantages in life - wealth and connections to future employment would not be diminished, as their parents network is responsible for this.

If you look at other countries with no or less of a private school system you still find a thriving economic elite. You'd achieve very little in terms of social mobility or redistribution of wealth. All you've done is put taxes up and increase the burden on comprehensives.

..... [the age old debate really has hijacked this thread now .... soz OP] ....

Yes - sorry guys. Trying to get back on track, but not ignoring social mobility, here is a question to all: of those "elite" London private day schools, which do you consider is most inclusive in terms of percentage of bursaries? How does SPGS do compared with, say, Godolphin? And is there a trend?

I do think this is an indicator not only of social responsibility, but also on how cohesion and tolerance are promoted among the pupils. DD currently attends a very "mixed" state primary which has some very wealthy children as well as some from local council estates, and it is to the credit of the school that there is a very inclusive atmosphere. Showing off is not tolerated, school trips are subsidised and parents' donations to the (large) PTA fund are strictly anonymous. This of course only works within school gates and children ARE aware of each others' backgrounds, BUT they have formed close friendships across social divides and are actively encouraged to look out for each other.

My worry is that a uniform-free place like SPGS, with some very wealthy families, will make poorer students feel less at home. What e.g. happens if a bursary recipient can't pay for a school trip? Is everything means-tested? Will the school really prop up families in cases of job loss (as is says on the website)? Do you know if any girls have left because of financial difficulties? Please feel free to dm me if you would rather not discuss in a public forum.

I teach at a London private school and I can tell you that all private schools now have a number of pupils on 100% means tested bursaries. When there is a school trip, the school charges other parents slightly more to cover the cost of the trip for the bursary pupils, although the parents are not told this is happening.

So now fee paying parents are paying for their own children's fees, plus extra for the bursary pupils plus their taxes for state places they are not using! Perhaps you should be thanking them rather than pillaring them all the time.

Jeanne16 - thank you, that is very reassuring. And yes, I fully agree on your last point. I will have to borrow money from 2 banks to pay the school fees from September but I did not apply for a bursary because I can get by without, while others can't. I have only one child (luckily, in this respect) and choose to spend most of what I earn on her, and I am perfectly happy with that choice. After all, it gives all the long hours I spend at work a meaningful purpose!

Whether or not it should be the Government's purse providing adequate education is a different question; I (now) opt out of the state system so it is my choice to pay. I would be (much) happier not having to pay but the differential in house prices in good state school catchment areas (plus cost of moving) seem to be equal to private school fees....

One more question to Jeanne16: in your experience, do pupils know who receives a bursary? Do teachers (other than the head and bursar) know? If so, has that ever lead to any problems? I have friends who did not apply for private schools although their dc would most likely get in and they are eligible for a bursary, because of the perceived social divide. That seems to me a more worrying barrier.

You can look up a private school's charity commission annual statement and it will often tell you how many bursaries have been awarded and how much money was forgiven/spent on those. After all, they are a charity with the aim of education! This should allow you to compare how "active" each schools is.

SPGS - "Today, 72 Paulinas receive financial assistance. This is about 10 per cent of our school population and our aim, over time, is to increase that figure to 20 per cent."

G&L - in 2013 58 girls received bursaries amounting to 6.8% of gross fees of the school

LU - In 2013 123 pupils received bursaries on the school roll (9.5%). 81 were 100% bursaries and 15 were 75%+ bursaries. This is a huge improvement as in 2003 there were only 10 bursaries.

So in West London, from these 3 schools alone there are over 200 kids on bursaries. Clearly there could always be more, but that's not as bad as many people ignorantly claim.

intrepid - spgs girls spend 3/4 days in compulsory school PE kit so I wouldn't worry about the no uniform aspect.
Leggings and T shirts, hoodies on the other days. TBH most girls look quite scruffy dressed down.
in MIV/Y7 no-one that I know, knows who has the bursaries and it doesn't appear to be a topic of conversation among the girls. We are not wealthy but manage by the skin of my teeth , similarly I worry about fees constantly rising . I can assure you my dd does not feel marginalised, labelled, excluded. I think you are assuming everyone at spgs is very wealthy but that's not the case. Feel free to message me if it helps.

MN164, spgsfan: thank you both, extremely helpful and reassuring.

As far as I can see, our pupils seem quite oblivious to who is on means tested bursaries. I don't think they even know there is such a thing. Pupils are 'cool/popular' or unpopular for many reasons, but not this. I am sure that is the case in most schools.

Intrepid, I went to SPGS a long time ago and nobody knew who had bursaries and who didn't, unless the information was volunteered by the child in question. My close friends ranged from the children of multi-millionaires to the children of parents who were in receipt of benefits and had not worked in some time. I am still in touch with most of them. My own father was out of a job for a whole year during my time at the school and the school helped (he was normally reasonably comfortable financially but a long way from wealthy). I also know a few current and recent pupils and think that the school does not seem to have changed significantly in ethos from what I knew.

Opopanax, thank you. I am really glad to hear that. After all the positive messages, I can only hope we will receive an offer on 12.2. and DD will choose SPGS. Although I'm sure the same is true for other schools, SPGS is so often portrayed as elitist that I was concerned. If she gets in, I hope DD will contribute to make the school a happy and inclusive place.

intrepid - good luck for 12th - let us know what happens. Was in your position this time last year, its horrid!

Good luck, intrepid and daughter. I am sure your daughter will have a great time, wherever she goes.

By chance, the SPGS Foundation Report dropped through my door this morning and happens to feature a few really lovely stories from Paulinas (now grown women) who are now doing a variety of quite inspiring things as a direct result of having received bursaries. None of them sound like they were looked down on at school or had problems because they were not rich - they all sound extremely clever and hardworking, though!

Thank you Opopanax and SPGSfan + many others for your kind words - I'll definitely keep you posted and if DD gets into SPGS I'd love to meet up (so I know whom to blame ). And if she doesn't (or chooses another school) I promise I won't have any sour grapes and will still be happy for others who are lucky enough to go there.