St Paul's Girls' School spgs

[Oceanicflight815]

I'm getting really tired of reading the negative comments about SPGS on here. I have a dd there and we think the school is fantastic. When we were faced with making choices after the 11+, I was so worried about all the hearsay that I seriously considered not accepting the offer. How was my normal, sporty dd going to cope with robotic, hot-housed, ultra-competitive, over-tutored, super-indulged, bitchy girls who wear obscenely short shorts? I'm so happy now that we gave it a chance.

"Well I never wanted my dd to go there", is a comment that offer holders will hear many times from people whose dd has missed the cut, even though you know that prior to the 11+, they would have sold their soul for a place. Naive people like me eventually work out that the negative comments are just the bitter taste of sour grapes.

My dd went to a school that prepared the children for the 11+ but there was no tutoring except for some who were struggling. As a poster has recently written, the school watches your child from the first day they walk in the door. They have test scores stretching for years. They know exactly what is going on and there is no way the Head will jeapordise their relationship with any of the secondary schools by recommending a child they feel is not right for that school. If it helps you to believe that my child spent all her young years being tutored, fine, but you are wrong with her and also for the huge majority of SPGS girls. They are genuinely clever girls. I understand the need to tutor if you are not coming from a private school. However, if you are at a prep school and are tutoring in the hope getting a place, you are making a serious mistake. Your dd will be happier at a different school. There are girls who make it through thanks to a tutor and they do struggle. Equally, you can dismiss the idea that prep schools over prepare the kids. If that was the case, they'd all be at spgs but they are not.

We live in West London and so we know classmates and friends' children at virtually every school here. There is absolutely no difference in the amount of homework my dd brings home compared to any of them. Content yes, amount no. Hot-housing clearly not. You need to let go of that myth too. There is plenty of time for clubs, after school activities, meeting friends, or just lying around watching television.

I find it insulting that my lovely dd is branded as robotic. She is a wonderful girl and I can't see anything in her personality that you would describe as robotic. I know all the girls in her tutor group and they are all really lovely girls that you be very proud to call your own. There was a bitchy super competive girl at her prep and that girl was not offered a place at spgs even though academically she would have been fine. I suspect that these sort of girls are being weeded out at interview. The girls at spgs seem to be confident in their own abilities. They are content within themselves. They know that they all got into the school for a reason and there is no need to prove their superiority to anyone. They are just friends.

Pushy parents, sure. No doubt I'm one. Unfortunately, you have to be in a West London. I do want what is best for my children. I want them to reach their potential. And I know the parents at my prep were the same as me and their children went to a whole range of schools so you've got the same parents at every school.

As for short shorts, that's just an additional ridiculous argument against the school. yes, there are a few. I see the girls are nearby schools rolling their skirts up. They are all teenagers. A poster suggested you stand outside the school gates and see the skimpy outfits worn by spgs girl. instead, you will see jeans, hoodies, and leggings. Half of them are in their sports kit. And they do have a really nice (but expensive) sports kit.

Yes of course there will be issues but they are the same issues as all schools around here face. If you are stressed and over anxious, it would not have mattered if you went to spgs, g&l, Lu, leh, fh, nh, clsh, nlc etc. All these schools and many more are great schools who are aiming at good results. Sex, drugs, fingers crossed yet to go there, but any story told to you third hand about spgs will apply to any school. I've got a ds elsewhere and all I can say about pastoral care is that it is far superior at spgs, as is their communication with parents and opportunities for parental involvement.

So good luck to you with your upcoming offers. Accept spgs if you feel it is right for your dd. Accept leh if that is, especially if you live near it. Keep the commute in mind, it is really important. They are all great schools around here. Ignore all the sour grapes, not just about spgs but about whichever school you choose. And if you were desperate for an offer from school but miss out, be happy for those that got in. It's ok to be disappointed. Feel sad and then make the best of what is offered. Congratulate your child, they did a great job in a very tough and stressful situation. I wish them nothing but the very best.

Needmoresleep

You are right of course. In the context of "Education UK" it is a trivial comparison amongst the top 100 (or whatever league table).

The iGCSE league table story recently throws light on the question "What are these tables for?"

(Indie head complained that exclusion of iGCSE means many top schools appear in the bottom half of the table which is not useful for parents. Minister responds by saying the tables are designed for private schools.)

I understood that St Pauls (boys and girls) deliberately exclude their data from the surveys and league tables (Times etc) that come out just after exam results and give the bare minimum required by law to the DoE because they aren't interested in that.

On the other hand, St Pauls (boys) states that its function is to get boys to the university of their choice. They see themselves as a stepping stone. If the universities want grades - that's what they will deliver. I'm not convinced they actually care about league tables as such.

basildonbond

Very sensible and I agree with all your points but no 4 is a big open question (co-ed vs single sex).

I had a neutral stance to positive on co-ed (it is "natural" after all) until I did some research (see other threads) and now find it a much more risky decision to go co-ed which will depend very much on my particular daughter's predicted personality in adolesence .... a thing that frankly can't be predicted with any accuracy at all!!

OP I also hugely welcome the comments as though I have heard wonderful things from parents there I get negativity from all other corners. I will in all likelihood be applying for DD2 but the negativity about it was starting to put me off. DD2 is yr 5 at an excellent state primary and has just started with an 11+ tutor. She is very bright and is so hungry for knowledge that frankly would educate herself when it comes down to it. She is quirky though and won't necessarily jump through the hoops that adults expect her to- rather she does something different, equally good but certainly with her own stamp on it. Most teachers love her, a few think she is being difficult when she is genuinely just interested. I am desperate to find a school which will foster her creativity and independence, her tutor who has first hand knowledge of SPGS wants her to aim for it. I am really grateful for your post and will push the snide comments aside!

I live in North East London, so SPGS is completely out of the question for my daughters. I am aware that it has marvellous results and very clever students. I am also aware that it is rather expensive, and uniform-free. The only alumna I know of is Thomasina Myers, and that gal makes a darned good taco!

I would have naturally assumed that adults making snide comments about children or a school had a certain element of "sour grapes." I do see discussions where parents decide it isn't the best fit for their DD and that seems fine to me. No school will be best for all children and these discussions do help other parents considering schools.

I think your OP was a little counter productive though. The post itself is emotive, combative and attention seeking. You are adding fuel to the fire so to speak. I am sure in normal life you are a nice person and the school thing just has everyone a little overwrought this time of year. Somebody must have really got their hooks into you. SPGS is a great school and a perfect choice for many bright, high achieving girls. You have nothing to prove, the school is turning away hundreds of hopeful girls every year. Like mums always say: just rise above it.

15 girls joined SPGS this year for 6th form. A few girls sat Westminster, were offered places and decided to stay, others chose to accept their places. Some girls left for other schools as they wanted a change - just like at any other school.

Poison thank you for the update on 2012, I hadn't heard about it, I'll ask my dd if she knew when I see her later.

Luckily dcs only have to go to one school at a time, good job they are offered such a range & if catholic have an even wider choice.

Been reading this with a smirk.
DDs are at a school with the same academic profile as SPGS. So, handy guide for translating the rumour mill follows:

That school is a hothouse!= Your child didn't get a place or was strongly advised that is wasn't suitable. Or, you look at the results and assume that only uber-managed DCs can achieve those grades.
Reality= Very able DCs love being stretched and challenged and benefit from being with similar peers. Schools like SPGS select girls who won't struggle and will fit in well with the ethos. They can sometimes get it wrong and some parents push and over-tutor and any year group can have a bad dynamic but, by in large, DDs love the stimulation.Some will be asked to leave if GCSE's are really low but better to move to a place with more support than struggle miserably through 6th form and have their confidence destroyed. DD's school doesn't cull but one or two a year decide that they'd be happier at the top of the heap.

The girls are so arrogant= You met a girl at that school or saw a group of them being loud or rude on public transport. Or, they just seem far too proud of their school.
Reality= All teenagers are loud/rude.Confident girls scare adults. If you remember your teenage self as an insecure mess, a girl who looks at the world and sees boundless possibility is frightening who you were. These girls have their opinions and assumptions challenged every day in lessons and part of the core of their education is teaching them to debate. This is a good thing.The teachers treat them as potential intellectual peers who are there to be engaged. You might just have met a 'mean girl' and every school has a few of those. And, how wonderful to love one's school and feel a bond with classmates!

The girls are so entitled= Wow! Those fees are steep! Only rich girls from socially blood-sucking parents can go there (Bankers, oligarchs).
Reality= Many of those girls are on scholarship and bursaries or have grandparents paying. Don't assume you know their circumstances because you might be very surprised. If a school really wants a girl, they find a way of giving her a place. I agree that SPGS fees are excessive but Central London schools pay a huge amount in rates and pay their teachers very well so they get and keep the best.

The girls all have eating disorders/self-harm/ abuse drugs and alcohol/engage in risky sexual behaviour= I read something in one of the broadsheets a while back about this.
Reality= Really good pastoral care means that those girls are diagnosed and helped.The fact that it isn't swept under the carpet by the school says a great deal about how openly they discuss such things and create an atmosphere where girls feel they can ask for help. If you hear about a school where such issues 'don't exist', run away! It means that they don't notice or care or are lying. In any cohort of teenagers, there will be a few who have problems or fall off the rails. State or indie, selective or not, they are just teenagers. In your day, it was just hushed up or ignored. If you are hearing rumours that X from Y school did some horrible thing at a party, it's usually the same rubbish that got said to humiliate and shame girls from time imemorial. Instead of anonymous notes and graphitti on toilet stalls, it gets spread via social media.
My DD only knows one girl in her year who has an eating disorder and it was the PE staff who clocked it.

Any other question?

Horse mad mum.

I'm interested in the eating disorder stats. I'd like to be able to compare the national and average to incidence rates at schools to see if the hothouse + single sex = mental health issue has any bearing with reality. I suspect it does not but anecdotes don't prove anything.

horsemadmom it is all a matter of perspective though isn't it? I had two DDs who went to a school almost as selective as SPGS, one chose it over SPGS. Perhaps if I was going on one DDs experience alone without being influenced by other parent's experiences , I would say that the couple of girls known to be treated for eating disorders and some low level exclusive behaviour didn't amount to an issue. But then in my other DDs year it was an entirely different ballgame and there were enough troubled characters to manipulate the mores and make exclusion and intolerance of difference especially in relation to body image the norm with many girls influenced into the extremes of West London teenage culture, as well as mental health problems including Eating disorders. They kept the Priory busy. I did not read this in a broadsheet, this was my DDs experience. Of course the school recognised and jumped to it, right from Year 7 when it became apparent, there was both compassion and intolerance of disruption and bad behaviour, lots of imaginative responses such as drafting in sixth formers to talk to the Year 8s after they became aware a house party to which the whole year had been invited had resulted in girls not just drinking too much but mdma being handed around, mdma that originated from sisters at SPGS. However the school experience was still badly enough affected for there to be an exodus at 16 and I wish my DD had left earlier because she found a very different culture elsewhere at a less selective school. Of course this happens /can happen at all schools to some extent because it is a shared pool of teenagers, and no school can control the mix of a cohort, but it would be naive and complacent to deny that there isn't a set of factors in place, competitive environment, ambitious parents, very clever girls, affluence, that means that it is more likely to affect these West London "names". There are similar years down the school and I know from other parents it happens at other schools including SPGS, some of these troubled characters had sisters at SPGS.

It is something that I, as a parent, would with hindsight be taking into account when facilitating my DDs to make that decision at 11. Some girls like one of my DDs are confidant enough of their identities to resist, others like my other DD are either less confidant or so quirky that they are always going to be a target, or easily influenced. It is another factors along with gut feel, distance facilities etc. you need to take into account in that decision.

Name changed for this post - anyone considering Spgs our experience so far MIV (Y7) joining from a local school outside of London I can sincerely say the school is nothing like the caricature image portrayed. It's baffling as to where these rumours stem from.
The teaching experienced so far is very liberal with less homework than dds previous Y6. Teaching staff are very professional but the lesson delivery method creative.
My personal observation being girls from Dds teaching group are diverse ethnically balanced and whilst a handful have very wealthy parents ( we are not) it doesn't seem to make any difference to friendship groups which tend to form directly from sports/music/science clubs etc.

I have encountered 1 scary parent and 1 scary child to date, % wise it would be no different anywhere else.
My DD read comments prior to starting and had almost decided she wouldn't fit in ( not sporty, competitive or rich) but she herself now says she cant imagine being at any other school, she absolutely loves it.

I could only find 1 study from The Royal Free (1990) . A more techie person than I could probably figure out how to post the link. The abstract is very clear that socio-economic class was not a factor nor was periodic dieting but history of obesity in the family was.Sorry MN164, it will all be anecdotal.
Any school can have a duff year, Poisonwood. My DD2's year has some real doozies! Oddly, the mum who whips up hysteria like Henny Penny fretting that they will ALL be starving themselves and slicing off bits unless the school does SOMETHING! is the one whose daughter claims that her own mum put her on a diet. All parents should be keeping an eye on their DCs behaviour. I don't think the schools can do it all.
DDs' school is in a less yummy mummy part of London. Very ethnically mixed and lots of parents working very hard to be able to prioritise education. Keeping a lid on academic pressure from home-not school!- is the tough task our school faces. They can't select girls by giving the parents psychiatric tests but I bet they wish they could.

I have been thinking about this thread today...not because of the SPGS issue specifically but about the comments on the girls being arrogant. Don't we need to be careful not to fall into the trap of viewing confidence in women as a negative attribute? It's on the same lines as an assertive man is a good thing at work and an assertive woman is a bossy schoolmarm.

So I would like to posit that if the girls at SPGS - or any other school - are described as arrogant we perhaps just pause and reframe it as confident?

Obviously there may be come behaviour which tips over into unkind or inconsiderate, which we should fairly criticise, but I think I will be pleased to see young women being confident in their own abilities in a world where so many women are still oppressed.

Working not sure how you define arrogance but for me it is when people feel superior to others. That is different to confidence (or indeed overconfidence). A girl who is loud articulate and feels her school is best is n't necessarily superior although would have to be careful to not equate advantages with superiority. Selfworth is great as is assertiveness in either a girl or a boy. Some of the most arrogant people I have met have had impeccable manners but that just camouflages their strong sense of superiority from social background and / or intelligence.

I agree with summerends, and if you read my earlier post you will see that I refer to the sense of entitlement or arrogance at both SPS and SPGS. I believe it has been part of the culture at both schools, and may well be changing. I love to see confident young women, but confidence is NOT the same as arrogance, which is all about differentiation and superiority. Many of the London girls I see are clever, loud,fun and confident, but are quick to mix with others and not obsessed by their alma mater.

If I was a schoolgirl who had an education which cost twice that of the vast majority of children received, and was part of an elite group which excluded anyone other than the very able, and (mostly) well off, I'd feel 'superior'. Because they ARE 'superior' and intended for 'superior' things in life - the best jobs, the best universities (and coincidentally the best housing and health).

Call a spade a spade why don't you....

Faux humility is pretty unattractive.

By extension of your point minifinger we all feel superior to people in developing countries? In these sort of schools as in gramma schools 'academic superiority' is more prevailing than social superiority.

Hhmmm - I think this discussion has veered off track a little.

Re: fake humility - I DO want my DD to do well and achieve whatever her potential is, and I AM willing to spend whatever money I earn to enable her to do this, and I am not pretending that this is a world of equality or that I am not incredibly lucky and privileged to give my child an excellent education.

However, I DON'T want her to grow up with a sense of entitlement or superiority, just because she's lucky enough to have all this support. Arrogant people (boys and girls) are not well liked and in most social environments don't get far. A school can only do so much in steering pupils' attitudes, the real risk I think is peer pressure - and, by extrapolation, the attitudes of the other parents. Also, I fear this easily becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: once a school has acquired a reputation for being "arrogant", parents worried about arrogance won't send their children there, while those who are not will.

As for SPGS, I just hope DD, if she gets an offer and chooses to go there, will find non-arrogant friends and contribute to improve the image of the school.

intrepidfox I would agree that it is certain peer groups and their parents rather than the staff of a school that promote such attitudes and about it being a 'self fulfilling prophecy'. As victimof, I and others said earlier in the thread tendencies to arrogance in such schools can be counteracted by parents such as yourself.

Summerends: agree entirely. The dilemma is whether to risk sending your child to an environment that may be wrong for her, but have a chance to change it, or opt out and send her to another school with a "better" social environment which may otherwise not be ideal (at which point the "arrogant" school will be left to the "arrogant" cohort).

DD loved SPGS because of its perceived "quirkiness" and the teachers she met there, it's very near our home and her teachers (state Primary) said she'd do well there because she needs to have a challenge. I have not spoken to her about my doubts re: reputation and am secretly hoping she won't get an offer - sad but true.

TBH if I had a DD who was drawn to it because of quirkiness and the location was convenient I would send her there. From seeing the alumini of certain girls' schools there are not that many who have benefited from a system promoting originality and flexibility in learning.

Talking of quirkiness: I would be interested in hearing from SPGS parents if they think SPGS really does encourage individuality (as they say they do) and if so, in what way. Does anyone have a comparison with, say, Godolphin or Latymer Upper? What (if anything) makes SPGS more quirky??

DD is a self-declared nerd with an idiosyncratic sense of fashion (strictly nothing remotely smart or ironed) and dry sense of humour, went to the interview with a beanie and told them she is terrible at team sports but likes ready gory crime novels (-: Otherwise happy and relaxed. So I guess if they offer her a place they must have a certain preference for quirkiness..

Btw: she didn't try this trick at other schools' interviews (-:

"reading", not "ready"..

Mmm a tough question Intrepid because a) I wouldn't want to say that other schools aren't as good at this as Spgs as I have no comparison data and b) I can't find a way to answer it which doesn't begin to sound patronising to girls I might designate as quirky - whatever that means. My quirky might be your boring!

But what I can say is it's a big school - 110 girls per year - and they seem to encompass a huge range from alpha partying girls to geeky girls to quiet girls to studious girls to girls with AS to musical girls to actress girls to sporty girls....and they all seem very accepting of each other and open to appreciating each other's talents in a very rounded way. They will work together across all those boundaries to do things as a team - so my DD who is probably on the quiet studious side for example did a couple of things over the last year in a team (being deliberately vague to protect her identity) with girls who are of a huge variety - from the geeky to the alpha - what brought them together was their passion for the thing they are doing. I was impressed by their openness and acceptance of all sorts of girls and by how much they loved working together on a shared goal - even if they weren't going to head off to spend Saturday night together.

So I guess I am saying the school and the girls seem to me to be very open to all sorts and that all sorts of girls can find the thing that stimulates them there and be noticed for what she is good at. And teachers are good at drawing people towards additional opportunities to reflect their interests.

Ultimately your acid test is if your dd is offered a place as that will show the school is comfortable that she will be happy there. And from what you said I don't think she is out of normal range for Spgs!

Yes I found the comment about the super bitchy girl off putting especially when the op next states (and this it with my favourite comment) " they know they got into the school for a reason and there is no reason to prove their superiority to anyone"

To me it reads that you are sending tour child to school to gain the superior advantages that private schools provide. Well done you. You are buying her advantages in her life over other children. I find great issue with people having their destiny because of testing at 10 or 11. I am not from the uk but I do think it is divisive for society as a whole over here.

Your daughter did not get in because of her own merits, you supported her and have the money and the time and the inclination to do so. That is what this is about.

You want her to have the privilege and assumed superiority over others.

Snapple

That is, of course, the classic debate about selective schools in the UK. Is it unfair on other children if;

• I have enough God points to attend an excellent but exclusive Catholic school

• I live in an area where house prices are high because it's inside a small catchment area from a great state school

• I have a child that has passed the 11+ to a grammar school

• I have a child that has passed an 11+ and also qualify for a bursary to a private school or have grandparents who will pay the fees

• I got into the excellent state school by lottery but my neighbour didn't

• I send my daughter to a great girls school but your son can't go

There are choices, liberty and freedom to dispose of wealth as private individuals see fit, along with a private sector in education and health.

Not very specific to SPGS I think......