St Paul's Girls' School spgs

[Oceanicflight815]

I'm getting really tired of reading the negative comments about SPGS on here. I have a dd there and we think the school is fantastic. When we were faced with making choices after the 11+, I was so worried about all the hearsay that I seriously considered not accepting the offer. How was my normal, sporty dd going to cope with robotic, hot-housed, ultra-competitive, over-tutored, super-indulged, bitchy girls who wear obscenely short shorts? I'm so happy now that we gave it a chance.

"Well I never wanted my dd to go there", is a comment that offer holders will hear many times from people whose dd has missed the cut, even though you know that prior to the 11+, they would have sold their soul for a place. Naive people like me eventually work out that the negative comments are just the bitter taste of sour grapes.

My dd went to a school that prepared the children for the 11+ but there was no tutoring except for some who were struggling. As a poster has recently written, the school watches your child from the first day they walk in the door. They have test scores stretching for years. They know exactly what is going on and there is no way the Head will jeapordise their relationship with any of the secondary schools by recommending a child they feel is not right for that school. If it helps you to believe that my child spent all her young years being tutored, fine, but you are wrong with her and also for the huge majority of SPGS girls. They are genuinely clever girls. I understand the need to tutor if you are not coming from a private school. However, if you are at a prep school and are tutoring in the hope getting a place, you are making a serious mistake. Your dd will be happier at a different school. There are girls who make it through thanks to a tutor and they do struggle. Equally, you can dismiss the idea that prep schools over prepare the kids. If that was the case, they'd all be at spgs but they are not.

We live in West London and so we know classmates and friends' children at virtually every school here. There is absolutely no difference in the amount of homework my dd brings home compared to any of them. Content yes, amount no. Hot-housing clearly not. You need to let go of that myth too. There is plenty of time for clubs, after school activities, meeting friends, or just lying around watching television.

I find it insulting that my lovely dd is branded as robotic. She is a wonderful girl and I can't see anything in her personality that you would describe as robotic. I know all the girls in her tutor group and they are all really lovely girls that you be very proud to call your own. There was a bitchy super competive girl at her prep and that girl was not offered a place at spgs even though academically she would have been fine. I suspect that these sort of girls are being weeded out at interview. The girls at spgs seem to be confident in their own abilities. They are content within themselves. They know that they all got into the school for a reason and there is no need to prove their superiority to anyone. They are just friends.

Pushy parents, sure. No doubt I'm one. Unfortunately, you have to be in a West London. I do want what is best for my children. I want them to reach their potential. And I know the parents at my prep were the same as me and their children went to a whole range of schools so you've got the same parents at every school.

As for short shorts, that's just an additional ridiculous argument against the school. yes, there are a few. I see the girls are nearby schools rolling their skirts up. They are all teenagers. A poster suggested you stand outside the school gates and see the skimpy outfits worn by spgs girl. instead, you will see jeans, hoodies, and leggings. Half of them are in their sports kit. And they do have a really nice (but expensive) sports kit.

Yes of course there will be issues but they are the same issues as all schools around here face. If you are stressed and over anxious, it would not have mattered if you went to spgs, g&l, Lu, leh, fh, nh, clsh, nlc etc. All these schools and many more are great schools who are aiming at good results. Sex, drugs, fingers crossed yet to go there, but any story told to you third hand about spgs will apply to any school. I've got a ds elsewhere and all I can say about pastoral care is that it is far superior at spgs, as is their communication with parents and opportunities for parental involvement.

So good luck to you with your upcoming offers. Accept spgs if you feel it is right for your dd. Accept leh if that is, especially if you live near it. Keep the commute in mind, it is really important. They are all great schools around here. Ignore all the sour grapes, not just about spgs but about whichever school you choose. And if you were desperate for an offer from school but miss out, be happy for those that got in. It's ok to be disappointed. Feel sad and then make the best of what is offered. Congratulate your child, they did a great job in a very tough and stressful situation. I wish them nothing but the very best.

I went to a fee paying London school on a major bursary (decades ago!). There was a mix of middle class (doctors, opticians, journalists, etc), a number of bursary kids (although this only became clear when we left and matured enough to realise it) and a handful of then "uber rich" (who wouldn't cut it amongst today's elite). Very cliche to say, but their wealth was clear but made very little difference to friendships, study, peer groups or "status".

Perhaps it's different today, but I suspect the "wealth" thing is not as big a deal as some middle class guilt ridden parents think it is.

My daughter recently left Putney High and I can assure you there were very few mega rich girls. Mostly they were daughters of middle class professionals.

Thank you Jeanne16.

I think private schools should have to charge vat and this could then be used to provide additional funding to close the gap with the state sector.

Marmitelover55

Raising fees by 20% would raise taxes for education, but it would also put these schools further out of reach for a large number of middle class (probably privately educated) parents. Those parents will turn to the state to educate their children. The additional taxes would be spent on additional students, not increasing standards.

Fees at Putney High are £5,290 per term and at SPGS they are £6,958 ((£7,479 if your DD joins in Y12). This is an enormous difference. Basically, a higher rate tax payer has to earn c£10k more pa to cover SPGS's fees than for Putney High.

For salaried professionals of the kind who used to send their DDs to SPGS a generation ago (university lecturers, civil servants, journalists, GPs, et al), the school's fees are simply prohibitive.

Furthermore, SPGS's fees have risen at a faster rate than any other school in the UK in the last five years (37%). Salaried professionals have seen their incomes stagnate during the same period.

The impression given by SPGS (and a few others like it, eg KCS Wimbledon) is that it is deliberately aiming to become more exclusive, offering a de luxe education for the very wealthy (with all due respect to some who have posted above, if DD's grandparents are paying these eye watering fees, then yours is a very wealthy family by any ordinary definition) whilst offering a smattering of bursaries to the underprivileged to keep the Charity Commissioners happy. It's a suicidal policy, which should be denounced by all supporters of independent schools, because it is a million miles away from their founders' principles and is now beginning to alienate middle class opinion formers, risking the withdrawal of charitable status from all schools.

If charitable status were withdrawn would vat be chargeable?

No.

Yes, if charitable status was withdrawn, VAT should be chargeable. Furthermore, in theory, the school's assets could be seized by the Crown. As I have posted on other threads, the heads and governors of these "leading" schools are leading all independent schools over the edge of a cliff with their lunatic fees.

SPGS is a great school but if it continues on its voyage to another planet inhabited only by the super rich, in a few years' time, there won't be discussions on MN about whether it or not it sufficiently participates in MUN. Instead, there will be speculation about what use the government is going to make of the prime London property it has seized from it.

Supporters of independent schools would like to see Clarissa Farr making headlines by pledging to slash costs to reduce fees and to improve access, instead of her "attacks" on her existing customers (the subject of another recent thread on here).

I don't see why they should have charitable status anyway. They are businesses which service the wealthy, not organisations which support the afflicted.

There are 100s of proprietor or privately owned independent schools in the UK. They do not charge VAT on education because the supply is exempt from VAT. There are additional vat benefits available to charities, but for most charities these are relatively small.

Schools have typically ended up as charitable trusts due to who founded them originally, and most of those charities predate VAT.

Granolamuncher - you make a very strong case. I think I have just had my mind changed!!

What happens to that difference in fee for SPGSs? Extended school day or higher paid teachers or capital projects? Or is the extra used to fund more bursaries?

37% fees increase in 5 years??? How can any salaries keep up with that?? Thinking ahead, that is seriously worrying. Would the school grant a partial bursary to those parents it prices out in a few years, absent any other change in circumstances?

If DD is offered a place, I think this is something I will raise with the Head, and it may tip the balance in favour of another school.

Magdalen College School in Oxford creates enough of a stir about high fee rise at now ~£5000 per term.
Out of idle curiosity I checked the day girl fees of Cheltenham Ladies College which does not need London teacher salaries but does have Saturday morning school. SPGS appears a bargain for sixth form entrants since for CLC day fees are over 7000 and then increases to 8000 for new sixth form entrants. That is with a substantial part of the sixth form summer terms when no teaching is required due to exams.

The GDST school, of which Putney High is one, have always offered the best value for money, for private schools. The 26 schools share common admin which cuts costs. As a result, I think you also get slightly different types of families at PHS from a school like SPGS. This school tends to be chosen by parents for whom money is less important than the status of having a daughter at the top school.

To be precise, SPGS's fees rose 37.6% between 2009 and 2014: www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Education/article1489981.ece

Yes, it must have been terrifying for those parents who had made efforts to be able to afford the fees five years ago. No way could they keep up if they were employed in ordinary middle class professions.

Many parents do resent being priced out. That is precisely what has happened. Once the opinion formers themselves can no longer afford the fees, warning lights should be flashing.

You could raise this issue with the High Mistress, theintrepidfox, but she must inhabit a different reality.

No more following this thread. DD didnt get spgs but happy that she got nlcs. No dilemma's at all today and for the rest of the life too . Sometimes no choice is better than spoilt for choice !!

Same here - sadly DD did not get an offer from SPGS, after all the support from great SPGS mums alumni and students I feel a bit disappointed. But she got offers from G+L, CLSG + LU and a music scholarship, so we are still very lucky and spoilt for choice. Some of the concerns and considerations in this thread apply equally to those schools, so I am happy I followed it and feel better equipped to help DD make the right choice. So thank you very much to everyone on this thread, and (as promised) I will point SPGS candidates to this thread and tell them how good my impression was.

Now: anyone interested in a new G+D / LU / CLSG thread?

MissW I was at a sports tournament recently & the NLCS coach was very good with her team, from that snapshot I'd be happy.

Good luck to all your daughters with their new schools

theintrepid and others: you will find plenty of Latymer Upper, some G&L and perhaps some City discussion partners on the excellent SW/W thread (Part 2)

Extremely well done to your DD!

Take the one with the scholarship!

Check what the t&c are for accepting a music scholarship, what is the actual benefit. G&L music scholarships are v gd iirc, 40% discount on all fees but if your dd also likes acting/sport accepting the music scholarship may restrict her from taking up new opportunities. Or if she lives for music it won't matter at all.

Commiserations of the very mildest sort to miss and the fox: your DDs have done really well and will not miss out on SPGS. Impressed by music scholarship - fantastic achievement!

We got an offer from SPGS but are balking at the fees! DH and I are two working professionals but don't feel £21000/year for the next 7 years can be justified to ourselves. DD also has a 20% scholarship from a GDST school so we will probably go there. GCSE results at SPGS are definitely better but it's such a lot of money.