Should we take DS out of grammar school?

[dobedo]

Our DS started at a grammar school in Sep 14 and is in yr7. He was very close to passing the 11+ exam and got in on appeal. DS went to a state primary up to the end of yr4 when we decided to move him to a local prep for the last 2 years as the state primary had really gone downhill due to a new head. When at primary school he hated maths as the school didn't teach it well however at his prep school he came on so much and enjoyed learning again.

Basically we thought that by putting DS back in the state system into a grammar school would be fine and a great idea as it wouldn't cost us anything and he would be getting a good education.

However, since being there for 1 term his confidence has gone down, he moans that children just talk in the classes all the time and he can't hear everything and that the other children aren't interested in learning. Also, especially in maths the teacher never gets to him when he puts his hand up for help in a lesson and when everyone is talking he gets confused.

There is an independent school in the area that gets fairly good grades but not as good as the grammar school obviously, however, he would be back in classes of 20 rather than 30 and get more attention and help from the teachers.

Would you remove your child from a grammar school to put them back into the independent sector for the additional help and attention? I'm so confused, I never thought we would consider taking our DS out the grammar school.

I'd start by getting his hearing and eyes checked, just on case there us a physical reason why he is struggling.

There is an independent school in the area that gets fairly good grades but not as good as the grammar school obviously Why obviously , are they not selective, would he pass the entrance tests if 11+ was an issue ? tbh those types of issues are likely to be similar in any school. He need to learn he won't get n with every teacher and avoid distractions. As time goes on he is more likely to be setted and choose options alongside others of same interest and motivation. Have you spoken to the school yet , Head of Year perhaps, as I wouldn't be taking his word alone for what is going on . If you do decide to move him maybe 13+ would be better timing if the independent has an intake from local preps then.

I think I'd talk to the school first to find out how they think he's doing.

Is he missing his old friends from the prep school? He might just be finding the transition hard. My DD's just fine the reverse (state primary to private secondary) and it has been a huge amount of new things to get used to along with all new people to get used to.

Is he maybe struggling academically? Possible if he got in on appeal despite good teaching

I would get his heating and eyes checked as a pp suggested.

Have you also considered that he might be struggling with the pace of learning in a grammar school? You said he got in on appeal, does that mean that his score was not high enough and was reviewed? If that is the case then there will be a lot of boys who achieved a higher score and possibly have a higher level of ability. Taking your son out of grammar and putting him into an independent isn't going to change his natural level of ability.
The prep school will have helped with confidence building because that is part of what smaller prep schools tend to do but that doesn't mean that a smaller class in independent senior school will do the same.
I think you need to do the heal checks and then speak to the current school about the difficulties that your son is currently reporting to you.
Out of curiosity- which region is the grammar school in?

Have you spoken to the school yet. I'd try and resolve the situation that way first.
However, every school is different and it could be somewhere else would suit him better.
Year 7 is quite difficult, particularly the first long term. If he's finding things difficult for the reasons you give I'd contact the form tutor who may be able to help with the Maths situation.
I hope you get everything resolved.

Did his friends from the prep go to the private school? Is he just having problems settling in and using concerns he has perhaps heard expressed about the state system to try to get you to move him to where he really wanted to go?

Have you spoken to any teachers about how he is getting on? How is he doing in tests? Is he genuinely struggling (which is a possibility if he just scraped in)? Could you speak to his maths teacher about his concerns?

Another one recommending hearing and sight tests here.

Hearing test recommendation from me. Stick with it. The autumn term is long and draining and the return to school after Christmas may be worse. Things often get better towards the end of term as the days get longer and the dc get used to the pace of things. Give your ds at least until May before moving him.

I think the statement that the other children at the GS are not interested in learning is a bold one tbh..
At DDs GS it seems to take longer for DC from Indies to settle in. They often come from schools where they were tought in small groups and where a lot of work has been put in on passing the 11 plus. Those with natural ability normally settle in fine especially once they get used to working in larger groups. At DDs school students are expected to study independently and seek help themselves if they have difficulties. The school organises various subject clinics at lunchtimes and after school and students can also contact teachers by email but not everyone will be able to have their problems answered during actual lesson times and they have take themselves along to help sessions, nobody is going to prompt them to go unless in exceptional cases. Perhaps it is worth asking the school what support is available for your DC and maybe someone at school can have a chat with him so he knows where to get help if he needs it. Once he finds his feet he will probably be ok. If it really does not work out by the end of the year then perhaps it may be worth looking at alternatives. The first term was a long one. Hopefully he had a good rest over Christmas so he can go back well rested and with a positive attitude. Good luck,

Hmm tricky. He's only been there a term. Eyes, ears and a talk to school clearly needed.

Agree also that preps do push kids hard and teach to test even in areas like ours where it isn't supposed to be teachable ..... And he got in on appeal suggesting that, at the very least his performance on the test day was below that of his peers.

I've had 3 kids at grammars and the unhappiest are the kids at the bottom of the groups that had tutors and extra help at lunchtimes too. They were able kids, but felt they were " rubbish" compared to the rest and I suspect that will take years to shake off.

If finances permit I'd look at giving him another term to settle in but putting feelers out for a place in the inde school in sept ( and deciding before easter holidays as you won't be the only ones looking!) .

Has your ds said anything?

I think small classes to 30+ is quite a big adjustment and that number of pupils will create more low level noise even if pupils are generally well behaved. There will always be those who talk during lessons as well which makes even more disturbance in large classes. I have a DC who chats in maths (often came up at parents' evening) but also does very well. I can imagine that it is very distracting for those around.
I remember reading that extroverts cope well in those conditions but introverts require quiet to focus.
If your DS can adapt, his learning skills will be the stronger. I would also suggest another term or so unless you think he is genuinely unable to cope with the work.

It would also be worth checking the class sizes of the school you'd consider moving him to. My DD's Pfister private school has class sizes of 24-25, as compared to around 26-30 in DS's state school, so not very different really. I think smaller class sizes in the independent sector are more often in the prep schools.

Both my DCs sometimes complain of disruptive behaviour - something that I think comes more at secondary age than primary age, do be careful not to move him because you or he misses the cozy prep school atmosphere, as that may not be on offer at the independent school you have in mind either

I'd second what Theas said. I went to grammar school and this was a good 20 years ago so.tutoring did happen but was nowhere near as widespread as is now.

I.did very well in my 11+ but you.could always spot the kids who had been tutored or got in on appeal. Let's be honest, even trying for a grammar and getting close to the pass mark means these kids are reasonably bright and are used to.being near the top at primary/prep. At secondary though, they are now at the bottom of the group and that can.be a huge blow to their confidence and, unless the test day was just a blip, they could potentially contend with this for 7 years.

I have so many friends who would have been better being near the top at another school than lagging behind at the grammar. A happy child will always learn better than a miserable one. You know what's right for your child and it sounds like your gut is telling you it's not quite right at the moment.

The other children aren't interested in learning? In a grammar school?

Could it be more that your ds is anxious about not being as capable as the rest of learning and looking for excuses?

I would be inclined to reassure him that he got in and so has the ability. If you compared GCSE results with how well children did on the 11+ I think there would be wide variations. It may be that your ds needs to work more diligently and put in a little more time at home, but these are good skills to learn. There is always Khan Academy if he's not quite got something in maths or BBC Bitesize to go over other subjects.

" the other kids aren't interested in learning "

My observation is that they do learn very well but have capacity to be bloody annoying as well if the teacher isn't 100% on the ball.

Remember the many threads about " my primary child is disruptive because they are too clever" ( may or may not be the case) ? This is the natural extension of this is a carefully selected bunch of kids im afraid!

So grammar schools are selecting particularly disruptive kids?

No not in the slightest but do you really expect young teens of any ability who aren't being gainfully occupied not to make their own version of " fun"- chatting , doodling, asking silly questions etc? They aren't selected for being Angels and sitting quietly doing nothing.

It's very teacher dependent and interestingly the " dragons" that command respect and even a hint of - fear is the wrong word but yknow - in the lower years become " Mr X is legend " by 6th form.

The level of disruption is nothing compared to tv documentaries or what I hear from friends but it is not absent as it probably was at the OP sons prep with classes of less than 20 .

Thank you for all your comments.

Sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone with my original comments.
The independent school does get good grades just not as good as the grammar school. It does have an entrance test but it is not as selective.

The kids in the grammar school are obviously interested in learning, I think I just meant that there is more general noise and talking than DS is used to in his prep school. As pointed out this is probably down to the 30 students in the classroom rather than the 20 he got used to.

DS took the Kent selection test.

With regards to hearing, how do we go about getting it checked, can you just get it done through your GP?

We haven't had a parents evening yet which we think is also strange for year 7 but we may just be expecting too much? We will be talking to the school regarding maths especially in the new year and trying to get a meeting with the head of year.

We realise that we got in on appeal and we do believe he has the potential as he only missed the pass mark by a couple of marks otherwise we would not have tried for appeal. The last thing we want to do is to damage his confidence by having him struggle in the bottom set for the next 5 years and end up hating school again.

Usually school nurses re hearing test. Ring school and ask for referral

Hope it all works out for your DS. I guess the thing is to set a timescale and then Decide one way or the other

We haven't had year 7 parents' evening yet but we have had internal monitoring and brief reports. Both of these resulted in extended communications between parents and school and several students going 'on report'.
Parents' Evening is next term, otherwise you'd go over a year without seeing some parents! If you feel you'd like to talk to the teachers then just contact them. There's usually guidance on how to do that - and the parents' evening date - on the school website.

Once you have had his eyes and hearing checked out, assuming that is normal, then you have two alternatives. The first would be to change him to the independent school (but ensure that the pupils there are not even more disruptive in class and the teachers are good) so that he can get more attention and possibly work at a pace that better suits him at the moment. He could always reapply to the grammar sixth form if advantageous. The alternative would be for his confidence to be restored by outside tutoring. That would be cheaper but more time consuming for him and, if he is struggling to keep up with more than maths, not really practical.
I think grammar school DCs who do well are either as LaQueen says, or heavily supported by their parents/ extra tutoring or thrive by being pulled up by the high standard without suffering in self-confidence.

I wouldn't keep my child at a school where he was in the bottom set if I had a choice to go private.

I think he's not quite as academically able as the majority of children in his class and he's finding it tough.

Is it a question of learning style? My DD1 is reasonably bright (would probably have got into the Grammar if we had one round here), but seriously struggled with any lessons where the teacher talked at her. She was very deaf for a lot of her childhood, (chronic glue ear) and I just think she learns in a more visual way; she has absolutely no difficulty when information is written down and she can read it through. I think she has some sort of auditory processing problem. It hasn't stopped her achieving academically, but sometimes she needs to do extra stuff on her own.