Should we take DS out of grammar school?

[dobedo]

Our DS started at a grammar school in Sep 14 and is in yr7. He was very close to passing the 11+ exam and got in on appeal. DS went to a state primary up to the end of yr4 when we decided to move him to a local prep for the last 2 years as the state primary had really gone downhill due to a new head. When at primary school he hated maths as the school didn't teach it well however at his prep school he came on so much and enjoyed learning again.

Basically we thought that by putting DS back in the state system into a grammar school would be fine and a great idea as it wouldn't cost us anything and he would be getting a good education.

However, since being there for 1 term his confidence has gone down, he moans that children just talk in the classes all the time and he can't hear everything and that the other children aren't interested in learning. Also, especially in maths the teacher never gets to him when he puts his hand up for help in a lesson and when everyone is talking he gets confused.

There is an independent school in the area that gets fairly good grades but not as good as the grammar school obviously, however, he would be back in classes of 20 rather than 30 and get more attention and help from the teachers.

Would you remove your child from a grammar school to put them back into the independent sector for the additional help and attention? I'm so confused, I never thought we would consider taking our DS out the grammar school.

You are born with natural ability but some children never discover that ability because they are never given the chance.

My eldest son is your typical unsporting geek - was bullied for it actually - always the last to be picked for teams. We have discovered his sporting ability in two sports, but only really because we had the finances.

Don't get .....

I didn't Laqueen, my son ended up at a school that was desperately unsuited to him, because of the grammar system. He is unhappy, suicidal and the only help he has received has been because we have paid for it.

I think smokepole has read The Loneliness Of The Long Distance Runner one too many times, LaQ

Can we just accept that LaQueen's children are exceptional in every respect and move on?

Usuallu the reason grammar school sports teams outperform non grammar school ones is that there is a concentration of children who have opportunities outside school as well as in school. Privilege attracts privilege

I am sorry this is happening, OP.

These pupils never get a chance to show how good they could be at all sports. Laqueen How many Schools do the County teams your DD plays for come from. I am guessing 3 or 4 all of them being either private or grammar schools.

There is no mutually exclusive reason to suggest sporting and academic prowess do not go to together. However, in sports that don't require "connections " club fees or active parents, less academic and "Working Class" people are usually better. The only reasons that Rowers, Hockey players, Show Jumpers and Golfers get to the top is because deprived kids have never had a chance of playing them. I have also seen deprived pupils being quite good at those sports after having a go at them, but being ridiculed because of the schools they attended or what area they live in!.

To return to the OP, my son was at a grammar and desperately unhappy, looking back now I wish that I had removed him earlier. However your scenario does not seem as dramatic and I would certainly give him until the end of the year before choosing other options. As I said earlier feeling anxious is very common in the first term of all types of schools.

lessons should not be disrupted ( at any kind of school) and therefore I would be contacting your son's head of year about the behaviour in lessons as well as your concerns about your son.

".

There is no mutually exclusive reason to suggest sporting and academic prowess do not go to together. However, in sports that don't require "connections " club fees or active parents, less academic and "Working Class" people are usually better. The only reasons that Rowers, Hockey players, Show Jumpers and Golfers get to the top is because deprived kids have never had a chance of playing them. I have also seen deprived pupils being quite good at those sports after having a go at them, but being ridiculed because of the schools they attended or what area they live in"

Absolutly. But sadly this also apples to the sports you would think were more "democratic". For example, my Ds is a cross country runner.He usually competes against grammar and private school boys because boys from his school generally don't have the time and resources and energy to take them to meets and stuff. And the school staff are so overstretched/exhausted to fill in any more gaps.

This grammar creaming off those good at sports,music(basically anything) is just laughable bollocks.

In our area the local alternative comp creams off all those sporty,musical and dramatical because they have the far superior facilities and ethos in those areas.

Ime kids focus on different things.My kids are dire at sports partly because I put more of a priority on school work,partly because of sports cost and partly because they're just crap. Ime it's far easier to do better at the 11+ than sport/music because of the need for specialist facilities,lessons and cost needed for the latter but nobody ever seems to care about that it's just the demon 11+ passers they like to focus on.

*I don't agree that if a child fails by one point on the day, then ergo they are not grammar school material.

There is many a slip betwixt cup and lip.*

Indeed. So how can you defend the system, LaQueen & others, if you don't believe the mechanism for separating children at 11 is sound?

OP, was the prep mixed gender or single sex? What about the school your DS is at now? Sorry if you've already said and I missed it.

Apologies if this has been said before:
OP, if your Ds got through on appeal or HT appeal, you should not worry about his ability being lower than others.
To get through either of these processes, he had to have a proven solid track record of academic achievement, sufficient to convince an independent panel. Pupils who passed only needed to have a good day and there will be plenty of children who passed but would not have got through on appeal. So don't worry, it is hard to get through and they only put through people who are good enough.

Secondly, due to huge amount of tutoring employed, it is hard to gauge where a child is in the class at GS in year 7. Some of the preps are tutoring in VR and NVR from age 6 as part of normal lessons, producing v. high pass rates and lots of maths tutoring goes on for all types of school. So year 7 sees a 'bounce' effect for heavily tutored students, especially in maths which wears off by year 8 and a truer picture of actual abilities emerges.

Yes to what Purple said to a degree.

Putting aside the tutoring issue lets focus on the primary school intake.A friend of mine had her G&T son struggling in the first year.He'd come from a RI school state school and was dumped in with kids from good private preps. The poor kid was of course going to struggle for a while as he'd had a far inferior education before.he started to fly in the second year.

Now I know your dc went to a prep but there are preps and preps,he also went to a struggling state up until year 4 and had a change of schools which can cause a 6 month delay. There is a huge chance that your son is struggling through no fault of his own and after a year will come into his own.I'd stick it out and review later.

"This grammar creaming off those good at sports,music(basically anything) is just laughable bollocks."

Well, if you think that middle class, privileged children are just intrinsically better at sport and music as well as being intrinsically cleverer than disadvantaged children then it's bollocks. If you don't, then there is obviously something else going on.........

Hi dobedo:

Huge amount of discussion here and I admit I haven't even scratched the surface of reading all the comment.

Rather than get into the grammar vs. state sector education and why some excel at sport/ academic endeavors and others don't (which I agree can include something as simple as access to the opportunity) - I thought I'd throw in my opinion on what to do....

First off - It may also be the first time your child has had to cope with not necessarily being the brightest in a group. And this can be a real blow to ego. He's going to have to learn that if he wants to be in the 'top set' or get the teacher's praise - he may need to work harder.

I think you have to realise that this is a totally new environment and the likelihood is that the other thing your DS is suffering from is a lack of a support network. Joining clubs/ making friends may need to be the priority right now. If he's settled and has a good group of friends who are supportive of him - he may find his confidence improves/ as does his school work/ enjoyment of the school day.

If he's commuting - a long day (leaving in the dark/ coming home in the dark) - this can also contribute to feeling a bit low. Once we enter daylight savings - you may find his mood improves.

Finally - state grammars take in pupils from all sorts of backgrounds (including state sector) - for some kids (speaking as a parent who witnessed an interesting Y6 in a state primary) all work ceases after sitting the 11+ - they're clearly going to achieve NC L4+ at KS2 SATs so the school entirely loses interest with them. There's no homework; class is boring so they start goofing off; there's no serious testing so all practice/ revising as in the run up to the 11+ ceases - and basically they fall into bad habits/ attitudes. Ultimately - if they don't 'buck up' they will fall behind and end up in bottom sets at the grammar school. I know from a friend that teachers there she says there can be a real attitudinal issue where children confidently feel they're bright and don't have to work because that was how it was at primary. She says year after year there is a significant proportion of pupils that staff feel really shouldn't have got in - but they're in the school and now the staff's job is to get them to a reasonable level of achievement at GCSE. She has also said she's aware that some of the pupils heavily tutored to get into the grammar end up having to continued to be privately tutored in order to keep up.

DD1's best friend didn't initially make it into her grammar school - but was later approached in the summer (as those meant to be going there opted for other schools). This has seriously affected her attitude (i.e. a sense that she only just got in - bottom of the pile) and the fact that she's finding work a bit of a struggle (not helped by the fact that our local primary virtually did nothing with upper ability pupils in the run-up to KS2 SATs - so she pretty well did no work in Y6) + the commute to the school (catching a 7:30 a.m. bus and not getting home until around 5 p.m.) - all of which have meant adjusting to grammar school life hasn't been very easy for her. If your son is going through similar - you need to give him the time and space to find his feet in this new environment.

I'm sure it doesn't help that classes are boisterous and he feels that his maths teacher isn't coming to him. One obvious solution is for your DS to contact the maths teacher directly and arrange to see him at break/ over lunch/ after school for some help. But there are a ton of useful 'how to videos' on Khan Academy (www.khanacademy.org/) which are entirely free - just click subject & maths and then under the search engine type in what you're working on - percentages/ ratios/ averages/ algebra/ etc...

Doing more at home - independently - may be the solution in the interim. Encouraging him to work hard to get away from these boisterous kids may also be an incentive to work hard - I know for my DD1 (at an ordinary state comprehensive) working hard and doing well now in Y7 will impact what sets she's placed in from Year 8 - and she gets that it is the ticket to getting away from the disruptive pupils who show off or act out and keep interrupting classes.

HTH

DS is in Y8 at a local GS which he only got into on appeal. For the first year he had few friends, he is not into sport so he had to find his own way, he is quiet and likes to work hard and get on. His marks over the year showed progress in all subjects, some better than others and the school identified that he could do with extra support in English which lasted 2 terms. In his end of year exams he proved that he deserved to be there with some very good results, reasonable results and one poor result.

He does come home and tell us about the silly boys in his class and what they have got up to, you will find them in all schools as they are becoming teenagers and want to show off to their mates by pushing the boundaries. Also it can depend upon the teacher, if they are weak at something then the children will exploit this.

I would suggest you speak to the school and to find out if they think he is struggling and let them know what he is telling you. It could be that he is doing better than he thinks or maybe he could do with a small boost and they can help.

But I also know from DS that sometimes it is obvious to the boys who has got in on appeal and then struggle with the work. 2 boys left his class at the end of Y7 because of this and I know another has left in the first term of Y8 and moved back to his old prep school.

Ok so we have just had DS's results of his January exams. They were graded 0-4 in line with the new GCSE gradings and also gave us comparison to their KS2 SATS results. According to the KS2 results he was already a level 2. So in Maths he got a 2, Science he got a 3 and English he got a 1. We are concerned as according to their results he has made no progress in maths, gone backwards in English and has progressed in Science.

Am I interpreting these incorrectly?